Author Topic: Who Betrayed Nicholas II?  (Read 294158 times)

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Alixz

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Re: Who Betrayed Nicholas II?
« Reply #825 on: July 24, 2010, 10:03:00 AM »
But back to topic.  I have said before and probably in this thread that Nicholas's worst enemies were his immediate family.  They didn't support him enough.  They treated him as an inefficient small boy (which, I suppose is how he acted).

The Vladimirovichi were always jealous and wanted power for themselves, which they finally got after the abdication (even though it was a weak and useless power).

And yes, a small group got together with the intention of kidnapping Alexandra and sending her to a convent.  I like that idea myself, but it would have further destroyed Nicholas and weakened him even more.

And as a unit, his family flaunted the laws and Imperial decrees and did what they wanted in marriage and in everything else.

But Nicholas's worst enemy was himself.  He knew he was unprepared to rule but tried to anyway.  I don't know if he would have had the strength to remove himself from the line of succession when his father died, but Alexandra wouldn't have let him anyway.

I think that when Alix, as a young girl, got a taste of Imperial Russia at her sister Ella's wedding, she set her sights on becoming part of that world.  She got what she wanted and more and she wasn't going to give it up for anything. 

That is why I don't believe that turning down Prince Eddy of England showed that money and position didn't matter to her.  She had her sights set on a much more dramatic role in a wealthier and more powerful dynasty.  Queen Victoria might have thought that by turning down Eddy Alix gave up the most important position there was, but Alix knew better.

So in the end Nicholas was betrayed by almost everyone including himself and if one believes that Alexei's hemophilia was the fate of God, then he was let down by his God, too.

Nicholas was right to compare himself to Job.


Offline Pezzazz

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Re: Who Betrayed Nicholas II?
« Reply #826 on: July 24, 2010, 11:06:56 AM »

But Nicholas's worst enemy was himself.  He knew he was unprepared to rule but tried to anyway.  I don't know if he would have had the strength to remove himself from the line of succession when his father died, but Alexandra wouldn't have let him anyway.


This is interesting -- and something I've always heard.  But why wasn't Nicholas prepared?  At age 26 and the eldest son, he should have been prepared.  I remember in detail the rigorous education and training suffered by Edward VII and Crown Prince Rudolf for example.  They both would have been prepared as good as they would ever be by the age of 26.

Alexandra of England was not much on making sure her children got an education proper for a future ruler.  Was the same true for her sister?

Then again, there are many royals in history who learned how to rule in their 20s.  Was Nicholas just incapable or not intelligent enough?  It's true, he was a bundle of nerves, but that in itself could be a cause or just a symptom.  Neither George V or Wilhelm II were considered that capable or intelligent, but they at least kept their thrown or their head, respectively.  

So from this, I have to conclude that Nicholas II may have had his faults, but as far as enemies.......there were those arrayed against him that were worse than himself.
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Offline TimM

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Re: Who Betrayed Nicholas II?
« Reply #827 on: July 24, 2010, 12:35:45 PM »
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I don't know if he would have had the strength to remove himself from the line of succession when his father died, but Alexandra wouldn't have let him anyway.


That's one of the tragic ironies.  I think Nicky would have been happy living on a farm somewhere, he liked working with his hands.  This is hindsight, but it would have been better for him, and his family, if he had removed himself from the line of succession.  I suppose he could have passed the title of Tsar to his younger brother, Michael.
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Constantinople

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Re: Who Betrayed Nicholas II?
« Reply #828 on: July 24, 2010, 01:21:25 PM »
There are many reasons why Nicholas was unprepared to rule.  Part of it was his upbringing.  His father was a true autocrat who infused a feeling of insecurity in his son, secondly he was not trusted with enough to truly give him a feeling of confidence.  Thirdly, his mother indulged him.  Fourthly, he hated arguing with people and to get to the bottom of a problem sometimes means taking the advice of people you thoroughly disagree with.  Many of Nicholas' best advisers like Count Witte had short lived careers. Fourthly, the way he isolated himself meant he did not build up enough experience to build  a strong informational foundation upon which to make quick decisions.  Fifthly, he was a fatalist and once he made a decision, he seldom reversed it even if it meant a disastrous outcome.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2010, 01:55:56 PM by Alixz »

Alixz

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Re: Who Betrayed Nicholas II?
« Reply #829 on: July 24, 2010, 01:57:53 PM »
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I don't know if he would have had the strength to remove himself from the line of succession when his father died, but Alexandra wouldn't have let him anyway.


That's one of the tragic ironies.  I think Nicky would have been happy living on a farm somewhere, he liked working with his hands.  This is hindsight, but it would have been better for him, and his family, if he had removed himself from the line of succession.  I suppose he could have passed the title of Tsar to his younger brother, Michael.

I think that Michael was just 16 when Nicholas became Tsar.  If he had passed the succession to Michael there would have had to be a regent.  And remember that Alexandra was already there writing in his diary and letting him know that he was his father's son that he should be the first to know everything.  She was meddling even then.

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Who Betrayed Nicholas II?
« Reply #830 on: July 24, 2010, 02:26:04 PM »
...[in part]....

And it was the overwhelming catastrophe of World War I that destroyed Nicholas II, Bear, not any secret conspiracy on the part of nobles or the military or the duma or revolutionaries or whoever or whatever.

The catastrophe of the  WWI was one of the many reasons  Nicholas II was not successful.  However, it was not the only reason.  This is a discussion on one of the additional reasons which is:  the betrayals of those around him.  

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Offline TimM

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Re: Who Betrayed Nicholas II?
« Reply #831 on: July 24, 2010, 03:40:36 PM »
 
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And remember that Alexandra was already there writing in his diary and letting him know that he was his father's son that he should be the first to know everything.  She was meddling even then.

The words of Judge Joe Brown come to mind here:  Man up!

Nicholas should have just told her that he didnt want the job.  Alix might have whined a bit, but she would have gotten over it.  I don't think she would have left him if he turned the job down.
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Constantinople

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Re: Who Betrayed Nicholas II?
« Reply #832 on: July 24, 2010, 03:53:53 PM »
Nicholas never considered that option.  Hi logic went this way:  God chose me to be the autocrat of Russia.  I don't really want the job but I am not prepared to argue with God.

Offline TimM

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Re: Who Betrayed Nicholas II?
« Reply #833 on: July 24, 2010, 04:01:03 PM »
And that was the cause of his downfall.  Poor guy, he really needed someone to tell him the truth, even if he didn't want to hear it.  If I ever get round to building that time machine, I'm going back to have a little talk with Nicky. 
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Constantinople

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Re: Who Betrayed Nicholas II?
« Reply #834 on: July 24, 2010, 04:22:06 PM »
I think i said this once before.  Even if you got to the right place, with about 3000 servants surrounding him, not including secret police, you would never have got close to him and even if you did and told him, he would have asked you to leave and not come back.

Offline TimM

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Re: Who Betrayed Nicholas II?
« Reply #835 on: July 24, 2010, 04:27:42 PM »
Yeah, you did tell me that.  Sorry.

That psychic paper the Doctor carries around would come in handy (you have to be  Doctor Who fan to understand this reference).  If I could get him into my time machine, I could show him what would happen, that might give him food for thought!

ANyway, I'm taking this thread Off-Topic.  Whoops.
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Offline RHB

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Re: Who Betrayed Nicholas II?
« Reply #836 on: July 24, 2010, 04:32:49 PM »
But I agree... he was unwilling to change and he couldn't change therefore his downfall! As for the off-topic part about the time machine... Tim take me along with you please?
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Offline TimM

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Re: Who Betrayed Nicholas II?
« Reply #837 on: July 24, 2010, 04:36:54 PM »
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As for the off-topic part about the time machine... Tim take me along with you please?

Sure,  maybe the two of us could convince him, or perhaps even save him and his family.
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Offline Belochka

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Re: Who Betrayed Nicholas II?
« Reply #838 on: July 24, 2010, 10:22:31 PM »
... And it was the overwhelming catastrophe of World War I that destroyed Nicholas II, Bear, not any secret conspiracy on the part of nobles or the military or the duma or revolutionaries or whoever or whatever.

With respect Elisabeth, but Nikolai II was most certainly betrayed by members of his own Family, identifiable members of the nobility and representatives in the Duma and last but not least, his military Generals in the field and at Stavka. My book: "The Murder of Grigorii Rasputin, A Conspiracy that Brought Down the Russian Empire", discusses this point in extensive detail.

In essense the betrayal was a deliberate calculated two pronged attack against Nikolai II that derived from private and public spheres.

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Offline Elisabeth

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Re: Who Betrayed Nicholas II?
« Reply #839 on: July 24, 2010, 10:36:13 PM »
Belochka, with all respect, I don't think it constitutes a betrayal when a ruler has repeatedly demonstrated that he is utterly incompetent to rule and moreover, unwilling to listen to, much less heed, the advice of wiser men. If Nicholas II was "betrayed" by members of his family, the duma, the aristocracy, the middle class, and virtually every other social group that counted politically in imperial Russia, then obviously he deserved it. In the same way George III was "betrayed" by the American colonists who rebelled against his rule. But nobody calls the American Revolution a "betrayal," because to do so puts the entire historical episode, of such tremendous importance to tens of millions of human beings, the vast majority of them as yet unborn in the 18th century, in utterly personal terms, as if the only life that ever mattered in these circumstances was the ruler's. Every time somebody says that Nicholas was "betrayed" they paint themselves in no uncertain terms as a monarchist. Which is fine, you are entitled to your opinion, but it's completely unfair to expect the rest of us to buy your version of reality as if it were the only version of reality.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2010, 10:46:20 PM by Elisabeth »
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