Author Topic: Who Betrayed Nicholas II?  (Read 271964 times)

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Offline Tsarfan

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Re: Who Betrayed Nicholas II?
« Reply #525 on: February 12, 2007, 11:12:04 AM »
Did Nicholas II actually write somewhere that he placed his personal life before his duty as Tsar?

Did Catherine II actualy write somewhere that she was planning a coup against her husband?  But the coup happened, didn't it?

I don't why the notion that actual events can convey motive and meaning is so difficult for you to grasp, Bear.  Why do other posters have to spend so much time helping you gas up for the next lap of the race?

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Who Betrayed Nicholas II?
« Reply #526 on: February 12, 2007, 11:22:55 AM »
Back on the 23 of Feb. 1917

Nicholas II wrote in his diary words that continue the theme of how he ruled as an autocrat.

He is writing to his wife:

>>What you write about being firm-- the master -- is perfectly true.  I do not forget it - be sure of that, but I need not bellow at the people right and left every moment.  A quiet sharp remark or answer is enough very often to put the one or the other into the [stet; their?] place.<<

24 Feb 1917

>>The last snowstorms,  which ended yesterday, along all our southwestern railway lines,  have placed the armies into a critical situation, if the trains cannot begin moving at once -- in 3 or 4 days real famine will break out among the troops.  Quite horribly angusihing<<

And then I found this!

26 Feb 1917:

This morning during service I felt an excrusiating pain in the middle of my chest which lasted for a quarter of an hour.

I could hardly stand and my forehead was covered with beads of sweat.

I cannot understand what it was.... 


I don't recall anyone,  historians or posters here on this thread,  talking about Nicholas II's health.  Was  it was possible that Nicholas II had a heart attack.... ???  ???  ???

Was this the first time he felt these pains?

If Nicholas II felt that he did have  a heart attack,  this places a completely different slant on why he might have abdicated  when he did.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: February 12, 2007, 11:29:29 AM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Who Betrayed Nicholas II?
« Reply #527 on: February 12, 2007, 11:45:31 AM »
Did Nicholas II actually write somewhere that he placed his personal life before his duty as Tsar?

Did Catherine II actualy write somewhere that she was planning a coup against her husband?  But the coup happened, didn't it?

I don't why the notion that actual events can convey motive and meaning is so difficult for you to grasp, Bear.  Why do other posters have to spend so much time helping you gas up for the next lap of the race?

Is this a "yes"  or a "no"  about you having something which the  Tsar wrote which you can post which tells us that he placed his personal life before his duty as Tsar?  Or is it  a feeling  [educated deduction; assumption; whatever....] you have after reading all the books, letters, ect. etc.  about Nicholas II which drew you toward this conclusion? 

I  assume you weren't channeling.  ;)

AGRBear
« Last Edit: February 12, 2007, 11:49:21 AM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Tsarfan

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Re: Who Betrayed Nicholas II?
« Reply #528 on: February 12, 2007, 12:10:28 PM »
To take but one example, it is known through documentation that Stolypin, Sandro, Ella, and others warned Nicholas that Rasputin was critically damaging the reputation of the monarchy.  Instead of dealing with that damage as his first priority, Nicholas let the damage accumulate in order to keep his wife off his back.  In fact, Nicholas was reported to have told Stolypin in one of their discussions that he would rather deal with 10 Rasputins than with one hysterical wife.

I don't need to channel Nicholas to understand that one's decisions stand as evidence of one's priorities. 

Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: Who Betrayed Nicholas II?
« Reply #529 on: February 12, 2007, 12:35:03 PM »
 :-X
« Last Edit: February 12, 2007, 12:52:12 PM by Helen_A »

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Who Betrayed Nicholas II?
« Reply #530 on: February 12, 2007, 12:53:16 PM »
To take but one example, it is known through documentation that Stolypin, Sandro, Ella, and others warned Nicholas that Rasputin was critically damaging the reputation of the monarchy.  Instead of dealing with that damage as his first priority, Nicholas let the damage accumulate in order to keep his wife off his back.  In fact, Nicholas was reported to have told Stolypin in one of their discussions that he would rather deal with 10 Rasputins than with one hysterical wife.

I don't need to channel Nicholas to understand that one's decisions stand as evidence of one's priorities. 

An excellent example on how Alexandra failed Nicholas II. 

And,  what of Rasputin?  Did he betray Nicholas II?

AGRBear
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Louis_Charles

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Re: Who Betrayed Nicholas II?
« Reply #531 on: February 12, 2007, 03:43:59 PM »
Yes, Bear, yes he did. Alexandra betrayed Nicholas, and Rasputin betrayed Nicholas, and Ella betrayed Nicholas, and Sandro betrayed Nicholas, and Kerensky betrayed Nicholas, and Alexeyev betrayed Nicholas, and I can't even begin to tell you who else --- oh, wait, yes I can. You betray Nicholas with your use of him as something to work out personal issues. I have no idea who "betrayed" you in your past, but dear God, I wish we could find the person and make him/her apologize so you could move on.

Bear, this is an historical posting board, not Therapy Iz Us.

Was the party fun?

Simon
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Offline Elisabeth

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Re: Who Betrayed Nicholas II?
« Reply #532 on: February 12, 2007, 05:02:58 PM »
Simon, the short answer is that everybody betrayed Nicholas II and so he deserved to be betrayed.

A hundred points to me.

Sincerely yours,

Elisabeth
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because I have seen no other

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Offline AGRBear

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Re: Who Betrayed Nicholas II?
« Reply #533 on: February 12, 2007, 05:13:41 PM »
Why, why, why are you reading posts in threads that drive you up the wall?

The title of this thread is very plain,  "Who Betrayed Nicholas II".

You may not be interested in why all these people betrayed Nicholas II, it's OKAY  with me.  But can we stop with the personal issues because like you just said,  this is a historical thread.  It's about people who felt it was important  to do more than talk about going against their Tsar,  they actually did.   That took great courage.   I'd like to know about these people and why they felt it was necessary at that particular time in hsitory of Russia.

I've learned about Gen Alekeev and Gapon,   how people feel about giving oaths,  and that you feel everyone betrayed  Nicholas II.

Tomorrow,  I might learn about the other generals.    Margarita gave us some of those names many pages ago. 

When people get tired of this topic,  we'll jump over to the next thread  and the next.... 

What is knowledge for anyway?

Knowlege is the antidote to everything  we should fear.

AGRBear


"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Elisabeth

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Re: Who Betrayed Nicholas II?
« Reply #534 on: February 12, 2007, 05:47:46 PM »
Why, why, why are you reading posts in threads that drive you up the wall?

The title of this thread is very plain,  "Who Betrayed Nicholas II".

You may not be interested in why all these people betrayed Nicholas II, it's OKAY  with me.  But can we stop with the personal issues because like you just said,  this is a historical thread.

Bear, forgive me for being so blunt, but the question of Nicholas's intelligence and competence are very much historical questions. Nicholas II was a historical figure. And if, as you and Belochka and vladm have been arguing, everyone in Russia betrayed him - from the generals to the nobility to the Church to the peasantry and so on and so forth - then all I am saying is, perhaps it's because he deserved[/b] to be betrayed? Because he was a bad ruler - worse yet, a bad autocrat, at a pivotal time in his nation's history, when bad leadership inevitably resulted in the loss of millions of innocent lives?
« Last Edit: February 12, 2007, 05:51:09 PM by Elisabeth »
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Offline AGRBear

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Re: Who Betrayed Nicholas II?
« Reply #535 on: February 12, 2007, 06:18:13 PM »


Why, why, why are you reading posts in threads that drive you up the wall?

The title of this thread is very plain,  "Who Betrayed Nicholas II".

You may not be interested in why all these people betrayed Nicholas II, it's OKAY  with me.  But can we stop with the personal issues because like you just said,  this is a historical thread.

Bear, forgive me for being so blunt, but the question of Nicholas's intelligence and competence are very much historical questions. Nicholas II was a historical figure. And if, as you and Belochka and vladm have been arguing, everyone in Russia betrayed him - from the generals to the nobility to the Church to the peasantry and so on and so forth - then all I am saying is, perhaps it's because he deserved[/b] to be betrayed? Because he was a bad ruler - worse yet, a bad autocrat, at a pivotal time in his nation's history, when bad leadership inevitably resulted in the loss of millions of innocent lives?

No agument from me.

If you had been reading my posts,  you would have known I agree.  Nicholas II was a weak leader.  And, yes, people betrayed him.  Who were they and what were their reasons?

AGRBear
« Last Edit: February 12, 2007, 06:22:36 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Who Betrayed Nicholas II?
« Reply #536 on: February 12, 2007, 06:40:03 PM »
[So,  who gave this oath and broke their oath? 

AGRBear

To pacify Bear  ;) this is the list of the other recipients of General Alexeyev's communication that were not mentioned previously:

Grand Duke Nikolai Nikolayevich (Caucasian front),
General Sakharov (Rumanian front),
General Brusilov (South-Western Front),
General Evert (Western Front),
Admiral Nepein, (Baltic Fleet),
Admiral Kolchak (Black See Fleet).

Margarita


Did all these men agree with Alekseev that Nicholas II should abdicate immediately?

AGRBear
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Belochka

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Re: Who Betrayed Nicholas II?
« Reply #537 on: February 12, 2007, 06:59:02 PM »
Sir Peter Bark, Minister of Finance was an eyewitness at Stavka.

He stated:

"Thus the army abandoned its chief. The Emperor had no choice but to sign the abdication act which had been imposed upon him."

Acording to Bark, Alexeyev's communications to the commanders did not permit any other solution.

Margarita


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Offline Belochka

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Re: Who Betrayed Nicholas II?
« Reply #538 on: February 12, 2007, 07:22:12 PM »
... And if, as you and Belochka and vladm have been arguing, everyone in Russia betrayed him - from the generals to the nobility to the Church to the peasantry and so on and so forth - then all I am saying is, perhaps it's because he deserved[/b] to be betrayed? Because he was a bad ruler - worse yet, a bad autocrat, at a pivotal time in his nation's history, when bad leadership inevitably resulted in the loss of millions of innocent lives?

Then there is nothing left to discuss ....

Margarita


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Offline AGRBear

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Re: Who Betrayed Nicholas II?
« Reply #539 on: February 12, 2007, 07:32:54 PM »
...[in part]...

26 Feb 1917:

This morning during service I felt an excrusiating pain in the middle of my chest which lasted for a quarter of an hour.

I could hardly stand and my forehead was covered with beads of sweat.

I cannot understand what it was.... 


I don't recall anyone,  historians or posters here on this thread,  talking about Nicholas II's health.  Was  it was possible that Nicholas II had a heart attack.... ???  ???  ???

Was this the first time he felt these pains?

If Nicholas II felt that he did have  a heart attack,  this places a completely different slant on why he might have abdicated  when he did.

AGRBear

Even his heart seem to have betrayed him.
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152