Author Topic: Who Betrayed Nicholas II?  (Read 271768 times)

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Offline Elisabeth

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Re: Who Betrayed Nicholas II?
« Reply #945 on: August 29, 2010, 01:21:13 PM »
AGRBear, all your quotes from Hall's biography of Marie Fedorovna convey to me is that she completely disapproved of her son Nicholas II attending the French ambassador's ball immediately after the tragedy of Khodynka field. Such an appearance by NII was indeed on the symbolic level a "violation" of the dead and if Marie actually felt this way then she was utterly in the right. I mean, a superstitious person in England at this time might just have easily said, in her place, "A goose walked over my grave." Meaning, only ill can come of these circumstances, we will all eventually face God's judgment for our actions (Nemesis, as the Greeks would put it).
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Offline AGRBear

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Re: Who Betrayed Nicholas II?
« Reply #946 on: September 03, 2010, 12:19:52 PM »
Quote
.... Dagmar's [Dowager Empress Marie's] part in the festivities  durning Nicholas II's coronation.  Here is what I found in Coryne Hall's LITTLE MOTHER OF RUSSIA p. 181:
...[in parts]....

>> ...although she could barely stand the sound of the music coming from the hall above in the Kremlin.  She told Queen Louise that she felt as if her grave was being violated.<<

...[in part]...
AGRBear

Dagmar voiced that felt as if her grave was being violated.  Her grave?!  Did she feel this for the next 19 years?  Is this why she didn't give Alexandra any support?  Boy,  I can almost hear the conversations between Nicholas II and his wife Alexandra about HIS mother, who under mined everything, so HIS mother could be the center of attention.  And,  close to the end of Nicholas II reign,  Dagmar was plotting to kidnap Alexandra and take her as far away from the capital as Dagmar could.
Was she planning to take her daughter-in-law's place?  If not,  then who was she supporting???

AGRBear
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Offline Elisabeth

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Re: Who Betrayed Nicholas II?
« Reply #947 on: September 04, 2010, 12:05:05 PM »
I'll repeat, the point is, AGRBear, that Nicholas II couldn't manage his own family, couldn't impose his will on his own family, - so how precisely could you expect him to impose his will on an entire empire? Of course there were plots and counter-plots against him. What was this, an English tea party, an English constitutional monarchy, or a violent, conflict-ridden country where between 1762 and 1801 there were two reigning monarchs murdered in palace coups (Peter III and Emperor Paul), in 1825 there was the Decembrist revolt in which Paul's son, Nicholas I, was shot at by rebels, and between 1866 and 1881 there were numerous assassination attempts committed by revolutionaries against a single tsar, Nicholas I's son Alexander II, all of which culminated in AII's murder in 1881? Did Nicholas II really expect to die in his bed? The historical odds were definitely stacked against him.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2010, 12:15:41 PM by Elisabeth »
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Offline TimM

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Re: Who Betrayed Nicholas II?
« Reply #948 on: September 05, 2010, 11:06:56 AM »
Geez, it's no wonder Alexander I took off and became a hermit!
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Offline AGRBear

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Re: Who Betrayed Nicholas II?
« Reply #949 on: September 05, 2010, 01:58:03 PM »
I'll repeat, the point is, AGRBear, that Nicholas II couldn't manage his own family, couldn't impose his will on his own family, - so how precisely could you expect him to impose his will on an entire empire? Of course there were plots and counter-plots against him. What was this, an English tea party, an English constitutional monarchy, or a violent, conflict-ridden country where between 1762 and 1801 there were two reigning monarchs murdered in palace coups (Peter III and Emperor Paul), in 1825 there was the Decembrist revolt in which Paul's son, Nicholas I, was shot at by rebels, and between 1866 and 1881 there were numerous assassination attempts committed by revolutionaries against a single tsar, Nicholas I's son Alexander II, all of which culminated in AII's murder in 1881? Did Nicholas II really expect to die in his bed? The historical odds were definitely stacked against him.

My goodness, Elisabeth, this was quite an outburst.  So,  let me see if I am understanding you.  You believe that Nicholas II was not able to manage his own family and because he was not able to do so then he couldn't have managed his empire.   Hmmmmm.  [Bear is thinking].   Tell me,  how was Nicholas II  to impose his will on his own head strong free thinking relatives?   Place them under house arrest?  Send them off to Siberia?  Tell them to leave the country and not come back?    Call them out to a duel?  Send the women to nunneries?   I come from a family who are hard headed free thinkers,  and,  if I were a Tsarina, I'd have to do one of those things to shut them up if they didn't agree with something I had done.  Ruling an Empire would be an easier task then ruling my family.  :>)

AGRBear
« Last Edit: September 05, 2010, 01:59:34 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

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Alixz

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Re: Who Betrayed Nicholas II?
« Reply #950 on: September 05, 2010, 02:31:07 PM »
I think that Dagmar was thinking of her loss.  She probably felt that loss keenly as just 13 years before the coronation had been that of her husband and of herself.

Her statement doesn't come across to me as "poor little me" but as an over whelming sadness for what had gone before.  She could probably still remember clearly the hopes and dreams  which she and Alexander III had carried with them on their coronation day and was justifiably sad.

I am sure that she also remembered that her husband had been a strong autocrat and, a mother's love not withstanding, I am sure that she could see that her son was no where near as strong.

It is very hard for one generation to make room for the next and to gracefully step aside.


Offline AGRBear

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Re: Who Betrayed Nicholas II?
« Reply #951 on: September 05, 2010, 04:36:05 PM »
She didn't say she was sad or missing Alexander II  or she remembered the night of her husband celebration or that it was terrible he had to die so young....  She said HER grave was being violated by the sound of the music.  She wasn't the one who had died.   Maybe, something is missing in the translation. 

AGRBear
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Offline Elisabeth

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Re: Who Betrayed Nicholas II?
« Reply #952 on: September 05, 2010, 07:59:16 PM »
I'll repeat, the point is, AGRBear, that Nicholas II couldn't manage his own family, couldn't impose his will on his own family, - so how precisely could you expect him to impose his will on an entire empire? Of course there were plots and counter-plots against him. What was this, an English tea party, an English constitutional monarchy, or a violent, conflict-ridden country where between 1762 and 1801 there were two reigning monarchs murdered in palace coups (Peter III and Emperor Paul), in 1825 there was the Decembrist revolt in which Paul's son, Nicholas I, was shot at by rebels, and between 1866 and 1881 there were numerous assassination attempts committed by revolutionaries against a single tsar, Nicholas I's son Alexander II, all of which culminated in AII's murder in 1881? Did Nicholas II really expect to die in his bed? The historical odds were definitely stacked against him.

My goodness, Elisabeth, this was quite an outburst.  So,  let me see if I am understanding you.  You believe that Nicholas II was not able to manage his own family and because he was not able to do so then he couldn't have managed his empire.   Hmmmmm.  [Bear is thinking].   Tell me,  how was Nicholas II  to impose his will on his own head strong free thinking relatives?   Place them under house arrest?  Send them off to Siberia?  Tell them to leave the country and not come back?    Call them out to a duel?  Send the women to nunneries?   I come from a family who are hard headed free thinkers,  and,  if I were a Tsarina, I'd have to do one of those things to shut them up if they didn't agree with something I had done.  Ruling an Empire would be an easier task then ruling my family.  :>)

AGRBear

The fact of the matter is that Nicholas's father, Alexander III, controlled the enormous and contentious Romanov clan quite well. He appears to have done this mainly through force of will and strength of personality. AIII did not have charisma, but he did radiate power. Whereas his son only radiated weakness, and yes, his Romanov relatives, like many other people (including his wife and Rasputin) frequently took advantage of this. I'm not saying it was right, but it was certainly natural, given the circumstances.

And yes, Bear, sorry to burst your bubble, but ruling an empire is obviously astronomically more difficult than ruling one's own family.
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Offline AGRBear

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Re: Who Betrayed Nicholas II?
« Reply #953 on: September 06, 2010, 01:07:36 PM »
I don't know what you've  read about Alex. III which has given you the opinion that he had control of his family more than his son Nicholas II had.  

AGRBear

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Offline Elisabeth

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Re: Who Betrayed Nicholas II?
« Reply #954 on: September 06, 2010, 05:53:21 PM »
I don't know what you've  read about Alex. III which has given you the opinion that he had control of his family more than his son Nicholas II had.  

AGRBear

Bear, as far as I know, there were no family scandals during Alexander III's reign, whereas during his son Nicholas II's reign there was literally one after another. If you look at the actual record, you'll see that AIII often acted as the bad guy in family romances, for example, that between Alexander Battenberg, briefly King of Bulgaria, and one of Victoria's German granddaughters. AIII put his foot down, whether it was appropriate or warranted or not, and that was that. Nicholas II never even remotely approached this level of political control over near relations.
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Offline AGRBear

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Re: Who Betrayed Nicholas II?
« Reply #955 on: September 06, 2010, 06:39:15 PM »
We known far more about Nicholas II then we do about Alexander III.  If you'd like,  we could take this subject "scandals of Romanov" under Alexander III to his section.  You and others might be surprised as to what we could find that occurred even under the  burly macho  Emp. Alex. III.

Meanwile,  let's get back to  Who Betrayed Nicholas II, which is the subject on this thread.


AGRBear
« Last Edit: September 06, 2010, 06:53:39 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

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Offline Elisabeth

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Re: Who Betrayed Nicholas II?
« Reply #956 on: September 06, 2010, 07:27:23 PM »
We known far more about Nicholas II then we do about Alexander III.  If you'd like,  we could take this subject "scandals of Romanov" under Alexander III to his section.  You and others might be surprised as to what we could find that occurred even under the  burly macho  Emp. Alex. III.

Meanwile,  let's get back to  Who Betrayed Nicholas II, which is the subject on this thread.
AGRBear

You know, AGRBear, one of your less appealing traits in this forum is that whenever you lose an argument you immediately try to change the subject. You are never less convincing than in your guise of disingenuousness.
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Alixz

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Re: Who Betrayed Nicholas II?
« Reply #957 on: September 06, 2010, 11:35:50 PM »
Alexander III changed the rights of his family to inherit the title of Grand Duke or Duchess and also the amount of money they would receive from the royal appenages.  Can anyone imagine Nicholas II doing anything like that and actually getting anyone to accept it?

Alexander made autocracy work by sheer will.  He believed in himself and his position as head of the family. 

He only ruled for 13 years, but during that time, I don't recall many morganatic marriages or divorces.

He may have been narrow minded, blunt and a reactionary, but for 13 years Russia was at peace with her neighbors if not with herself.

This makes one wonder if Nixa had not died before he could marry Dagmar and assume the throne, would he have been as successful as his "not ready for the throne" brother.  (Sort of a "not ready for prime time player")

Nicholas II would have ascended the throne in 1881 when Alexander II was assassinated with Dagmar as his wife instead of his brother Alexander III.

Does anyone know if Nixa was a liberal like his father and not a reactionary like his brother?  He died so young it is hard to know.

Looking at all that happened from 1825 when Nicholas I assumed the throne and 1917 when Nicholas II was murdered, it is almost too easy to look at like through Nicholas II's eyes and say that it was fate who betrayed him.

Offline Pezzazz

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Re: Who Betrayed Nicholas II?
« Reply #958 on: September 07, 2010, 11:24:56 AM »
Alexander III changed the rights of his family to inherit the title of Grand Duke or Duchess and also the amount of money they would receive from the royal appenages.  Can anyone imagine Nicholas II doing anything like that and actually getting anyone to accept it?

Alexander made autocracy work by sheer will.  He believed in himself and his position as head of the family. 

He only ruled for 13 years, but during that time, I don't recall many morganatic marriages or divorces.

He may have been narrow minded, blunt and a reactionary, but for 13 years Russia ..............................

This policy by Alexander III may have weakened, through resentment, the foundation inherited by his son.  IOW, the extended royal family may have been waiting for the opportunity to betray.
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Offline AGRBear

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Re: Who Betrayed Nicholas II?
« Reply #959 on: September 07, 2010, 12:35:57 PM »
We known far more about Nicholas II then we do about Alexander III.  If you'd like,  we could take this subject "scandals of Romanov" under Alexander III to his section.  You and others might be surprised as to what we could find that occurred even under the  burly macho  Emp. Alex. III.

Meanwile,  let's get back to  Who Betrayed Nicholas II, which is the subject on this thread.
AGRBear

You know, AGRBear, one of your less appealing traits in this forum is that whenever you lose an argument you immediately try to change the subject. You are never less convincing than in your guise of disingenuousness.

Unless the subject is about who betrayed Nicholas II,  it should be taken to a new thread.  It's up to you,  if you'd like to continue the discussion on the new thread,  I'll be happy to answer your questions, and,  I hope you'll answer mine.  And,  if you prove me wrong,  I'll admit I'm wrong.  

Oh, and by the way, I don't view this as an argument.  It is a discussion.   I'm not here to win or loose.  I'm here to learn from you and others.  Perhaps,  you can even learn from this old bear from time to time.

AGRBear

"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152