Author Topic: Who Betrayed Nicholas II?  (Read 294195 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

rskkiya

  • Guest
Re: Who Betrayed Nicholas II?
« Reply #105 on: July 12, 2005, 11:58:20 AM »
Quote
All this did not come about because of  personal betrayal  but because of his own actions, or lack of them. It was his responsibility, not anyone else's. If one has lost faith and loyalty, where is betrayal ? Betrayal of what ? Betrayal of a fiction ?


Yes, this was also my initial point  - but agrbear is unwilling to accept this arguement...
She has suggested that we cannot blame Nicholas for alienating his family and ministers with his fatalistic views and seeming indifference to the crisis facing Russia.

So I really don't understand what she is looking for with this...a 'scapegoat' I think.

rs

Offline AGRBear

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 6611
  • The road to truth is the best one to travel.
    • View Profile
    • Romanov's  Russia
Re: Who Betrayed Nicholas II?
« Reply #106 on: July 12, 2005, 01:17:04 PM »
You can name someone and then explain why he/she/they betrayed Nicholas II.  

Simple.

Try it.

If you don't like my resrictions for this thread then please start one which will make you happy, otherwise, please,  repect this thread which is not about how Nicholas II betrayed his family, friends, Russians or his god.

Thank you.

AGRBear

"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline elfwine

  • Boyar
  • **
  • Posts: 132
    • View Profile
Re: Who Betrayed Nicholas II?
« Reply #107 on: July 12, 2005, 01:23:11 PM »








do I hear the chirping of crickets?

hehe ;)

elfwine
Runes shall ye know and righly read staves
Very great staves.
Powerful staves.

Offline AGRBear

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 6611
  • The road to truth is the best one to travel.
    • View Profile
    • Romanov's  Russia
Re: Who Betrayed Nicholas II?
« Reply #108 on: July 12, 2005, 01:43:16 PM »
Quote
To betray implies that one has an obligation of loyalty, does it not?  Doesn't have to be an oath, though.  Could just be the obligations of citizenship, though perhaps a higher level of obligation is in order for this discussion.

My great grandfather, a chemist, roamed the countryside in the Ukraine "teaching" the peasants about communism and inciting rebellion.  His wife, a dentist (yes!  They let Jewish women study dentistry!) made bombs in her spare time for the revolutionaries.  Because they were Jews and had no real citizenship rights, I think they would have said they didn't betray Nicholas.  However, I'm thinking, if they were in the US and were American citizens with full rights (because the US has the antidiscrimination laws), such actions WOULD constitute a betrayal.....




Finelly has mentioned his/her great grandfather who taught communism to the peasants.

If he had been here in the US, where we have freedoms of speech, he would not have betrayed his President but merely used this rights as a citizen.

Since I don't know Finelly's age, I can't estimate how old his/her great grandfather was while going around and teaching communism.  I suspect, however, if it was before March 1917 then he was probably teaching "socialism".  There is a huge difference in the two.   I do not know what the laws were in Tsarist Russia about teaching "socialism" but I don't think it was against the law.  If teaching communism then this was after Oct/Nov of 1917.....

However, his wife, on the other hand, who made bombs for the revolutionaries,  was a terrorists.  And, I assume was breaking the law, therefore, she did betray the Tsar/Tsars and the laws of Russia.  If her bombs killed just the people she felt betrayed her and the Jews,  it matters not to me, because I'd still convict her of murder.  No one should be condemed to death without a trial where guilt can be proven or disproven.

Obviously  she thought she had an obligation to herself and the Jews, if not a Jewish reason then whatever her cause was,  to make bombs which helped to overthrow the Tsarist govt. so please post it in brief here but the bulk of the Jewish history and Nicholas II's attitude to the Jews should be  taken to the Jewish thread where it is already being discussed.  

AGRBear

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 6611
  • The road to truth is the best one to travel.
    • View Profile
    • Romanov's  Russia
Re: Who Betrayed Nicholas II?
« Reply #109 on: July 12, 2005, 01:51:44 PM »
Quote
Very interesting family history, Finelly.
In the case of NII, his ship was sinking, rapidly.  What was more loyal, go down with it  or man the lifeboats to try and save as many as possible, including one's own families ?
Revolutions makes people takes sides.  It is not a nice debate in which one can play the middle and survive for long. His own family  knew it was a lost cause.
All this did not come about because of  personal betrayal  but because of his own actions, or lack of them. It was his responsibility, not anyone else's. If one has lost faith and loyalty, where is betrayal ? Betrayal of what ? Betrayal of a fiction ?


So who were these very real people who betrayed Captain Nicholas Alexanderovich  because they felt the need to dessert the sinking Russian ship and give us their individual reasons why they felt their captain was at fault for their situation.

Finelly's great grandfather.  Reason ____
Finelly's  great grandfather's wife. Reason ____
Madame Buxhoveden.  Reason.... (see earlier posts)
Kaiser Wilhelm II. Reason..... (see earlier posts)
Others???

Name ___.  Reason___.
Name____. Reason___.
Name____. Reason____.....

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Finelly

  • Guest
Re: Who Betrayed Nicholas II?
« Reply #110 on: July 13, 2005, 12:01:21 AM »
Yep, you're right.  This was probably between 1989 and 1905.  I know they escaped Russia in 1905 because he was about to be deported to Siberia.

Socialism, not communism, I guess.  They were followers and friends of Trotsky.

Reason?  Nothing to do with Judaism.  As ardent socialists, they believed that religion was the opiate of the masses and were completely secular.  (much to the dismay of their ultra orthodox parents....)

I would think that it's safe to say that their reasons for betrayal were political.

Finelly

  • Guest
Re: Who Betrayed Nicholas II?
« Reply #111 on: July 13, 2005, 12:06:59 AM »
My great grandmother would be SOOO proud to be considered a traitor!  I hope she's up there reading these boards!!!

Offline Robert_Hall

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 6648
  • a site.
    • View Profile
Re: Who Betrayed Nicholas II?
« Reply #112 on: July 13, 2005, 12:22:40 AM »
If  someone would actually read what I said- the point was there was NO betrayal. It was REVOLUTION, one tooks sides.
And for some "vaunted" freedom of speech nonsense, I strongly suggest a serious re-reading of the McCarhty witch hunts as an example of "rights" abused or ignored. Cast any fake stones you wish, but there is no honour in such "patriotism".
As usual, I will leave this discussion with a slight smile, it is like listening to a much-too-often replayed record. One can hear the scratches even more loudly.
Life may not be the party we expected, but while we are here, might as well dance..

Do you want the truth, or my side of the story ?- Hank Ketchum.

Offline Robert_Hall

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 6648
  • a site.
    • View Profile
Re: Who Betrayed Nicholas II?
« Reply #113 on: July 13, 2005, 12:27:43 AM »
Finelly, the thought about you great grandmother is truely charming, however were not most true revolutionaries athiests, Jew or gentile ? Would love to have known her.
Life may not be the party we expected, but while we are here, might as well dance..

Do you want the truth, or my side of the story ?- Hank Ketchum.

Offline AGRBear

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 6611
  • The road to truth is the best one to travel.
    • View Profile
    • Romanov's  Russia
Re: Who Betrayed Nicholas II?
« Reply #114 on: July 13, 2005, 11:41:37 AM »
Quote
Yep, you're right.  This was probably between 1989 and 1905.  I know they escaped Russia in 1905 because he was about to be deported to Siberia.

Socialism, not communism, I guess.  They were followers and friends of Trotsky.

Reason?  Nothing to do with Judaism.  As ardent socialists, they believed that religion was the opiate of the masses and were completely secular.  (much to the dismay of their ultra orthodox parents....)

I would think that it's safe to say that their reasons for betrayal were political.


Trotsky.

What an interesting historical figure for your great grandfather and his wife to have known.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 6611
  • The road to truth is the best one to travel.
    • View Profile
    • Romanov's  Russia
Re: Who Betrayed Nicholas II?
« Reply #115 on: August 18, 2005, 07:50:49 PM »
Is there any evidence that G D Nicholas Nicholasovich showed any hatred or have any acts of  revenge after Nicholas II took away his position as Comander-in-Chief?



AGRBear
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Dominic_Albanese

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 514
    • View Profile
Re: Who Betrayed Nicholas II?
« Reply #116 on: August 20, 2005, 10:28:33 AM »
I've never read of Nickolasha being disloyal to N II - either before or after he took over command of the armies in WWI.

I can't source it, but I believe I have read that Nickolasha was not upset about being relieved of command because he was exausted and had some recent stinging defeats.  I do know that he was an enemy of Rasputin and was deeply concerned, like the rest of the family, over Rasputin and Alix's control of the Government w/Nicholas at the front.

Did Nickolasha have an archive or diary?  Have they ever been published?

To the best of my knowledge he went to his grave loyal to N II and the Empress Marie.  BUT he couldn't have helped but wondered what might have been had Nicholas listened to his family.

Finally, I've heard that he did and did not actively participate in efforts to recognize himself as the pretender to the vacant Romanov throne in the early 20's.

best,
dca

AlexP

  • Guest
Re: Who Betrayed Nicholas II?
« Reply #117 on: August 21, 2005, 08:50:37 AM »
Quote

The Russian people failed to understand the benevolence of their Emperor. It was they who betrayed their Emperor. It was the noble aristocracy, it was his family, the Army Generals, the intellectuals and the Duma; extending down to the ordinary citizen on the street whom the Duma purported to represent.

Words were many but action and foresight was lacking.

In the final moments it was the Russian people who were ultimately responsible.


Belochka,

As we say in Russian, "vot tochna" (quite right).  In the end, it was even worse : it wasn't who betrayed him...it was who remained with him...almost no one of any consequence..

All of the best.



A.A.

Offline Tania+

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1206
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
    • View Profile
Re: Who Betrayed Nicholas II?
« Reply #118 on: August 21, 2005, 01:10:38 PM »
Someone sent this to me, and told me to read more before jumping to conclusions. I'm not sure what is
meant but I offer it to those of you who can give me
feedback. My energy goes only so far. Thank you.

Tania

www.ihr.org
TatianaA


Offline Belochka

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 4447
  • City of Peter stand in all your splendor - Pushkin
    • View Profile
Re: Who Betrayed Nicholas II?
« Reply #119 on: August 22, 2005, 04:46:08 AM »
Quote
Someone sent this to me, and told me to read more before jumping to conclusions. I'm not sure what is
meant but I offer it to those of you who can give me
feedback. My energy goes only so far. Thank you.

Tania


Hi Tanya,

The link provided has nothing to do with the topic under discussion here. May I suggest that you ignore such references in future. Your DELETE option is the most appropriate conclusion.


Faces of Russia is now on Facebook!


http://www.searchfoundationinc.org/