Author Topic: Was Grand Duke Ernst really gay/bisexual?  (Read 48751 times)

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Offline Janet_W.

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Re: Was Grand Duke Ernst really gay/bisexual?
« Reply #90 on: September 14, 2004, 02:05:49 PM »
Since this is a topic about Grand Duke Ernst's sexuality, my own opinion is that it's absolutely correct to discuss sexuality as it was perceived at that time as well as it is perceived today.

And again speaking for myself, with regards to the matter of Ernie and Ducky's marital breakup I am reluctant to take a side. Both were wronged by this marriage. Neither, it seems, understood the matter of homosexuality (or any kind of sexuality) before they married. Neither seemed to adequately communicate with the other. But this is not unsual. Many couples these days still have difficulty in adequately communicating the smallest of matters, let alone concerns about sexuality.

Just from what I've read, I do not think I would have particularly liked Ducky. On the other hand, consider that women through the ages have been devastated by the moral shock of a husband's infidelity and the economic consequences if abandonment results. (And yes, sometimes men have been the wronged party, but until recently women were legally and socially very much at the mercy of men.)  Imagine, then, how devastating to realize your husband has not only been unfaithful . . . but with someone of the opposite sex, which--to your way of thinking--is against everything you understand and hold to be "right." For this reason I cannot condemn Ducky.  Having a husband who did not have sexual interest in her must have been frustrating, to say the very least. And then, what a humiliation factor. No wonder she jumped into an adulterous affiar with Kyril. Given the same circumstances, I certainly would have done so.

Also, while that "stable boy in the palace" may not sound quite right, consider too that where there's a will, there's a way, and anything is possible. Anyone remember a Merchant/Ivory film from 15+ years ago called Maurice?  In that film the groundskeeper climbs up into the landowner's room by way of either a tree or a trellis . . . which one, I'm sorry to say that I don't remember!


Offline grandduchess_ella

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Re: Was Grand Duke Ernst really gay/bisexual?
« Reply #91 on: September 14, 2004, 02:12:21 PM »
Greg--
That is so interesting! That is what I was hoping for when I started the topic. I had never heard of any other independent corroboration. It sounds like you have great references and makes me want to read the book even more now. But private investigators?? Who hired them--was Ducky going to put the squeeze on Ernie, were the Russians worried about 'embarrassing' disclosures about the Tsar's brother-in-law?, the Kaiser about a reigning Duke? All very mysterious....

Offline jehan

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Re: Was Grand Duke Ernst really gay/bisexual?
« Reply #92 on: September 14, 2004, 03:08:25 PM »
Quote

what about how it's okay to beat your wife with a stick no bigger around than your thumb, that's in there too. It's also a sin for a girl to cut her hair, better let it grow down to your knees. While I am a believer, I think maybe a lot of stuff in the Bible is not exactly all God's word but a history of the culture, lifestyle, ways and beliefs of a time thousands of years in the past? ??? (hopes not to be stoned or go to hell for posting this)


Uhh, I don't think that the "rule of thumb" is in the Bible- can you provide a chapter and verse?    However, I do agree with the rest of what you have to say  in principle.  :)

And I am looking forward to Greg King's book.  It will be good to have a well-researched book on a very interesting man.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by jehan »
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Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: Was Grand Duke Ernst really gay/bisexual?
« Reply #93 on: September 14, 2004, 03:40:25 PM »
Yes, of course "where there is a will there is a way". I do not doubt that it COULD have happened, just that the "surpise" element seems odd. Palaces normally have servants about at all hours,  it would be difficult not to hear someone coming or not be forewarned. The simple everyday protocol would have made it unlikely, in my thoughts.
As for spying, well, it seems everyone was [and still are] spying on each other, all over Europe  and beyond. What is amazing is that so much has survived ! Wars, civil unrest, revolution and all that paper is still around. Anyone who has done research, like a lot of people on this very board, will know that if you dig long enough and follow every clue, hint, trail, whatever, you will find something eventually. The actual discretion is determining whether it is true or not !
Cheers,
Robert
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Offline Greg_King

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Re: Was Grand Duke Ernst really gay/bisexual?
« Reply #94 on: September 14, 2004, 08:55:38 PM »
A few things:

Arturo-Knodt did leave out a great deal of information from his book, including stories concerning not only the Grand Duke's alleged homosexualty but also stories about his alleged affairs with several actresses who were said to have borne him children.  We know this from two people close to him, including one man whose authority on the Hessians is without parallel.  The point is-both assertions have to be investigated.

Also-I agree with what you say-without going any further it is very clear that Ducky was actively engaged in an affair with Kirill while married to Ernie.

Bobby-I think what Ducky said needs to be clarified.  She told Ileana and others that she found Ernie in bed with a member of the palace staff; she did not, as I recall, say it was a stable boy.  That seems to derive from another part of her statement: "No boy was safe,” she later complained, “from the stable hands to the kitchen help.  He slept quite openly with them all.”

Greg King

Offline Annie

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Re: Was Grand Duke Ernst really gay/bisexual?
« Reply #95 on: September 14, 2004, 09:36:35 PM »
Quote
A few things:
 "No boy was safe,” she later complained, “from the stable hands to the kitchen help.  He slept quite openly with them all.”

Greg King


Hate to be nosey  :-/ but was there anything between him and Felix Y? If he liked young boys, and well you obviously know the stories on Felix. In his memoirs Felix mentioned how much fun and full of imagination Ernst was and that he enjoyed spending time with him. So, anything to that?

While Felix never admitted to his sexuality, he does allude to it a lot with comments like 'my double life' and 'my scandalous past.' I heard that in France at the time Lost Splendor was written, homosexuality was against the law and punishable by hard labor busting rocks in the Pyrannes mountains, so no wonder!

Offline pushkina

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Re: Was Grand Duke Ernst really gay/bisexual?
« Reply #96 on: September 14, 2004, 10:48:49 PM »
Quote

Uhh, I don't think that the "rule of thumb" is in the Bible- can you provide a chapter and verse?    However, I do agree with the rest of what you have to say  in principle.  :)


the rule of thumb is not there but one of my favorites is that one MUST kill one's rebellious son.  i'll send you the references privately if you like.
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Offline grandduchess_ella

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Re: Was Grand Duke Ernst really gay/bisexual?
« Reply #97 on: September 14, 2004, 11:34:05 PM »
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the rule of thumb is not there but one of my favorites is that one MUST kill one's rebellious son.  i'll send you the references privately if you like.


Not to go too far off-topic--again, but....When I was taking my pre-law classes one of them, criminal law, discussed this 'rule'. Under common law (since women were chattel and basically worthless) you could beat your wife but ONLY with a stick no thicker than the length of your thumb. Nice, hm? Hope since people were smaller then their thumbs were too. That's where the phrase comes from anyhow.  Ironically, you could get serious jail (or even hanged) for beating your horse. Shows where our place was!  >:( Of course when hubby gets my bookstore and ebay bills he sometimes wishes that law was still in effect.  ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by grandduchess_ella »

Offline Michelle

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Re: Was Grand Duke Ernst really gay/bisexual?
« Reply #98 on: September 20, 2004, 06:10:13 PM »
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If you are going to blindly believe my dear Michelle "everything" said in the Bible...girl are you in for a lot of grief.

I seem to remember that the good book says something about not judging people, it is a sin I also believe, yet in your enthusiastic youthfulness you have done so with quite great carelessness.

The Bible also says that if you wear clothes made from mixed textiles, this is an abomination...meaning that if you wear some cotton/wool blends for example, you will be headed directly to the biblical frying pan.

Eating a ham sandwich is a sin...

Eating steak and shellfish together gets you condemned as well...

Lusting after the cute guy who sits across from you in class...you guessed it...is a sin as well...gossiping is also a big no-no, judging (again) is also a big NO-NO...

And the list goes on...and on...and on...

Before one states a condemnation of someone else, one should realize that this is judgemental and therefore a sin.  If you are going to base your opinion on what the Good Book says, you have to take it all, not just pick and choose like so many "good" Christians tend to do, just so they can go about feeling better about themselves.

If the Good Book gives you such great guidance and comfort, then perhaps you should read The Book of Ruth(1:16-17) as well as the Book of Samuel (18:1-5; 20:16-17).

I am one of the grooms whose wedding Ilana, Lisa and Bobby Hall rejoiced in and I will not, under any circumstance will I stand quietly by while a child who should know better, goes about passing judgement on me.

In utter disbelief at the bigotry so blatantly demonstrated by some,

Arturo Beéche >:(



Art, are you completely BLIND?!!!  You look absolutely RIDICULOUS quoting my post that had absolutely NO "bigotry" in your words, and then blasting me when I was trying to call peace!!!!!!!!!!!!! >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:
And I would like to thank gdella for pointing out to you that the inflammatory remarks had ended.  And I'll have you know that I will not stand by and let someone like you  condemn me for not liking your alternative way of life!!!  As I and others on this board have already stated, no one ( and that includes you deary ;) :-*) won't change my opinion or I anyone else's!!  You put it upon yourself to look childish by replying to my peaceful statement and reopening this crap!!!!  So GET OVER IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  >:( >:( >:( >:(

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Re: Was Grand Duke Ernst really gay/bisexual?
« Reply #99 on: September 20, 2004, 06:19:21 PM »
Quote

If you are going to blindly believe my dear Michelle "everything" said in the Bible...girl are you in for a lot of grief.

I seem to remember that the good book says something about not judging people, it is a sin I also believe, yet in your enthusiastic youthfulness you have done so with quite great carelessness.

The Bible also says that if you wear clothes made from mixed textiles, this is an abomination...meaning that if you wear some cotton/wool blends for example, you will be headed directly to the biblical frying pan.

Eating a ham sandwich is a sin...

Eating steak and shellfish together gets you condemned as well...

Lusting after the cute guy who sits across from you in class...you guessed it...is a sin as well...gossiping is also a big no-no, judging (again) is also a big NO-NO...

And the list goes on...and on...and on...

Before one states a condemnation of someone else, one should realize that this is judgemental and therefore a sin.  If you are going to base your opinion on what the Good Book says, you have to take it all, not just pick and choose like so many "good" Christians tend to do, just so they can go about feeling better about themselves.

If the Good Book gives you such great guidance and comfort, then perhaps you should read The Book of Ruth(1:16-17) as well as the Book of Samuel (18:1-5; 20:16-17).

I am one of the grooms whose wedding Ilana, Lisa and Bobby Hall rejoiced in and I will not, under any circumstance will I stand quietly by while a child who should know better, goes about passing judgement on me.

In utter disbelief at the bigotry so blatantly demonstrated by some,

Arturo Beéche >:(


I agree with Mr. Beeche, and would only add that Paul/Saul of Tarsus (who wrote most of the New Testament) was adamant that the self-righteous (which is just another word for judgmental) would not enter the kingdom of God.

Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: Was Grand Duke Ernst really gay/bisexual?
« Reply #100 on: September 20, 2004, 06:58:56 PM »
I do not feel that Arturo is the one looking ridiculous.
And, I agree with Dashkova, rather than argue with "pinafores in a snit".
Life may not be the party we expected, but while we are here, might as well dance..

Do you want the truth, or my side of the story ?- Hank Ketchum.

Offline Michelle

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Re: Was Grand Duke Ernst really gay/bisexual?
« Reply #101 on: September 20, 2004, 08:56:01 PM »
Robert-- Art most certainly DID look QUITE ridiculous.  He had NO BUSINESS bringing up the long-ended argument again.  He looked simply foolish when he used my truce post to quote and then crucify me.  Art obviously doesn't want this crap to end--he just wants to continue to shove his own way of life which I don't care for, to put it politely, down my throat--even when I had ended the argument and done the mature thing to call peace!!!!! >:( >:( >:(  It seems that the only reason you all think that I'm such a terrible person and a bigot is because I disagree with you on this controversial subject.  Now isn't THAT pretty childish?!  As mature adults, I would think that you all would EXPECT someone to disagree with you.  You really ought to handle it in some other fashion rather than slandering others calling them "bigots," and dismissing them by saying that they most likely have the mind of a child.  I really see no logic in Art's out of the blue outburst toward me, his reaction being of all posts, the one where I called a truce.  It's sad that a wonderful discussion forum like this that allows people like all of us who all have a great interest in the Romanovs(and their descendants) is now tainted with this idiotic blather.   >:( >:( >:(

Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: Was Grand Duke Ernst really gay/bisexual?
« Reply #102 on: September 20, 2004, 09:23:57 PM »
Michelle, as you addressed me personally;
YOU are the one who entered a topic that you would obviously find objectionable.
You are the one who expressed moral outrage & judgement towards others.
This was met with resounding rebuttal.
YOU continued to rant & rave about YOUR percieved "rights".
YOU respond with yet more rants to Arturo's post, which had been made some time before.
Peace ? Truce? Stupid, foolish ridiculous blather.
Enough said.
Robert

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Offline Louise

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Re: Was Grand Duke Ernst really gay/bisexual?
« Reply #103 on: September 20, 2004, 10:15:00 PM »
So sorry Michelle. You are a bigot and you are in the mind frame of a child having a temper tantrum. You brought up the subject of homopobia, and unfortunately for you, you have to live with the consquences of your words.

As long as you continue to condemn gay people and the gay people on this board, and our lifestyles (I'm home from work sitting in front of a computer, snacking on junk--such a decadent lifestyle, while my wife is watching mindless TV--again decadent) you can expect more of the same.

Not only have your remarks shown a total lack of respect for some of the posters on this board, you show a lack of respect for Art, who is one of the foremost historians in his field. I include Robert in your lack of respect, because he has been nothing but a gentleman to most on the board and extremely helpful and insightful on many areas of Russian history.

Once again, let me remind you. If you intend on studying the art of history, then you had better open up that narrow mind of yours and allow differing opinions and thoughts to enter into it. You are allowed your opinions on gay people, and we are allowed to defend ourselves.

Louise



« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Louise »
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Offline grandduchessella

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Re: Was Grand Duke Ernst really gay/bisexual?
« Reply #104 on: September 20, 2004, 11:05:38 PM »
Oh no, not again!  :( I'm beginning to really regret starting this post--it's just degenerating again. I don't want to see ANYone personally attacked. There are a wide variety of opinions on this board. While I personally come down in favor of gay rights (my father-in-law coming out late in life to my hubby), I also don't want to see Michelle vilified for her beliefs. Art inadvertantly 're-opened' the argument when he returned from Cancun, not knowing that all was seemingly resolved. When I pointed that out he said 'good' , dropped it and that was the end & we went back to happily discussing the HISTORICAL merits of the basis of the rumor/fact of GDE. I don't know if Michelle didn't see that post before she responded to his initial e-mail but it's caused another flare-up. Obviously feelings on this run very high and very deep. NO ONE on either side is going to change their opinions so can't someone be the one to let it go--I know it's hard when each side feels their lifestyle and beliefs are being attacked and, since names are attacked, feel that the attacks are deeply personal (and trust me, I'm usually the LAST person to want to let an argument go until I've been proven right, been vindicated and properly apologized to--just ask hubby  ;)). I just ask because I'm really feeling just so comforted by the newsgroup after the hurricane and I hate to see our happy family upset with one another. :) I'm sure Bob (my husband) is going to faint from shock if he sees me as 'peacemaker' so maybe do it for that if no other reason--one doesn't get to see a big, tough military officer faint very often.  ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by grandduchessella »
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