Author Topic: Spanish Bourbon Infantas  (Read 50898 times)

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Offline CountessKate

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Re: Spanish Bourbon Infantas
« Reply #30 on: January 21, 2010, 07:37:45 AM »
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No wonder one author wrote that the Princesses of the Royal House of Naples had the "hottest blood" in Europe.

Frankly, I can't see that two sexual relationships within marriage actually qualifies a woman as having 'hot blood'.  And Maria Isabella wasn't born a princess of the Royal House of Naples anyway, so that only leaves Maria Christina, whose qualifications for nymphomania seem rather slight.  Given both women married pretty repulsive examples of royal men, I'm not surprised they preferred their second partners to be of lower birh but perhaps greater attractiveness than could be found within the European Catholic royal gene pool.  But it still doesn't make either Maria Isabella or Maria Christiana especially 'hot blooded'. 

Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: Spanish Bourbon Infantas
« Reply #31 on: January 21, 2010, 11:45:52 AM »
Actually the bio the author wrote is about Caroline, Duchess of Berry. Another hot-blooded Princess of Naples. It draws the parallel between her and her half sister, Maria Cristina, Queen Dowager of Spain.

Offline CountessKate

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Re: Spanish Bourbon Infantas
« Reply #32 on: January 21, 2010, 02:30:25 PM »
So basically, the sole evidence for the 'hot bloodedness' of these Neapolitan princesses is that they married for a second time?  Wow.  Disgraceful, shocking and scandalous.  Rabid nymphomaniacs, clearly.

Offline Bourgogne

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Re: Spanish Bourbon Infantas
« Reply #33 on: May 05, 2011, 11:46:43 AM »
Does anybody knows at least a little portrait of Maria-Amalia? Impossible to find something... Sh died very young, yes, but there must be some portraits...

And does anybody knows why she married his old uncle Infant Antonio-Pascual? How came this strange marriage?
« Last Edit: May 21, 2015, 01:07:39 PM by trentk80 »

Offline prinzheinelgirl

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Re: Spanish Bourbon Infantas
« Reply #34 on: May 06, 2011, 12:50:07 AM »
Does anybody knows at least a little portrait of Maria-Amalia? Impossible to find something... Sh died very young, yes, but there must be some portraits...

And does anybody knows why she married his old uncle Infant Antonio-Pascual? How came this strange marriage?

I've read that Maria Amalia of Spain was included in Goya's famous portrait of the Spanish Royal Family (1800 or 1801) but others say she isn't since she died in 1798, that is before it was done. It's possible though that she was included even though dead. She is described as absolutely plain and that her sister Maria Luisa Josefa was much more attractive but based on the image above, she didn't seem to be so plain. She died giving birth to a stillborn daughter.  

I'm not sure but I think it was trentk80 who mentioned in another thread that Maria Amalia liked her cousin Louis of Parma and was very hurt when Louis chose her younger sister Maria Luisa over her.  So her parents quickly arranged for her marriage with her uncle and it became a double wedding. Infante Antonio, incidentally, was also mentioned in a possible match with Louis' sister(s) Carolina and/or Maria Antonia (I've read both names in separate references) before he wed his niece in 1795. Nothing came out of it. I guess he wasn't what we'd term as very "eligible"?  
« Last Edit: May 21, 2015, 01:08:05 PM by trentk80 »
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Offline Bourgogne

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Re: Spanish Bourbon Infantas
« Reply #35 on: May 07, 2011, 07:14:21 AM »
Yes I've read that Maria-Amalia could be on the the famous Goya portrait, near Antonio. Some others say it's Carlotta-Joaquina.

I really don't know what to think about this. It's Maria-Amalia or Carlotta-Joaquina, and in the 2 cases, I don't really see why Goya would have painted an infanta dead 2 years ago and I don't really see why he would have painted an infanta who left Spain many years ago... It's absurd for the 2 solutions, and yet, one is necessary good...

Btw I can't really believe, that there is no contemporary sources from that time who could indicate us who exactly Goya had to paint in this portait...


I'm don't even sure the portrait on geneall.net is really her. As you say, MA is said to habe been unattractive and this girl is cute, and I think this dress and hairstyle are not very compatible with 1790 or even later (because this girl seems to be a least 11 y.o. and if it's Maria-Amalie that would make 1790...)
 

Anyway thanx for the informations about her marraiage I did'nt know she wanted to marry her cousin. If she was hurt when he prefered her sister Maria-Louisa, I don't think that it was a good consolation for Maria-Amalia to be married, instead of Luis, to his old and ugly uncle!

Offline prinzheinelgirl

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Re: Spanish Bourbon Infantas
« Reply #36 on: May 08, 2011, 09:07:20 PM »
I'm don't even sure the portrait on geneall.net is really her. As you say, MA is said to habe been unattractive and this girl is cute, and I think this dress and hairstyle are not very compatible with 1790 or even later (because this girl seems to be a least 11 y.o. and if it's Maria-Amalie that would make 1790...)
 
Anyway thanx for the informations about her marraiage I did'nt know she wanted to marry her cousin. If she was hurt when he prefered her sister Maria-Louisa, I don't think that it was a good consolation for Maria-Amalia to be married, instead of Luis, to his old and ugly uncle!

Well, I've read that Infanta Maria Amalia of Spain was plain, very quiet and melancholy. According to a few authors at least but I'm not very sure about the truth of such claims.

Perhaps there was no other "eligible" princes around that they (King Charles IV & Queen Maria Luisa) could marry to their daughter quickly so they picked  Infante Antonio Pascual? I don't fully understand it either, and Infante Antonio seemed to have hated Queen Maria Luisa.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2011, 12:16:42 PM by trentk80 »
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Offline trentk80

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Re: Spanish Bourbon Infantas
« Reply #37 on: May 09, 2011, 04:49:23 PM »
I really don't know what to think about this. It's Maria-Amalia or Carlotta-Joaquina, and in the 2 cases, I don't really see why Goya would have painted an infanta dead 2 years ago and I don't really see why he would have painted an infanta who left Spain many years ago... It's absurd for the 2 solutions, and yet, one is necessary good...

I think that the girl next to Infante Antonio in Goya's family portrait is Maria Amalia. Although she was dead, she was painted with the rest of the family as a way of stating that they still remembered her. Besides, it was common to have portraits of deceased royals made for their family. For instance, there were at least 3 portraits of her grandmother, Louise Elisabeth of France, which were painted after her death. Why? Because her family wanted to have portraits of their beloved late relative.

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Btw I can't really believe, that there is no contemporary sources from that time who could indicate us who exactly Goya had to paint in this portait...

You're right. There are more sources from the era which could indicate this. Right now I can think of the correspondence between Queen Maria Luisa and her brother Ferdinand of Parma, which has never been published. Perhaps she wrote about the portrait in a letter to him.

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I'm don't even sure the portrait on geneall.net is really her. As you say, MA is said to habe been unattractive and this girl is cute, and I think this dress and hairstyle are not very compatible with 1790 or even later (because this girl seems to be a least 11 y.o. and if it's Maria-Amalie that would make 1790...)

The dress looks like 1790's style to me, but I could be wrong. Perhaps CountessKate knows if the dress and hairstyle are from the 1790's.

Anyway thanx for the informations about her marraiage I did'nt know she wanted to marry her cousin. If she was hurt when he prefered her sister Maria-Louisa, I don't think that it was a good consolation for Maria-Amalia to be married, instead of Luis, to his old and ugly uncle!

Well, I've read that Infanta Maria Amalia of Spain was plain, very quiet and melancholy. According to a few authors at least but I'm not very sure about the truth of such claims.

The author who wrote it (that Maria Amalia was quiet and melancholic and that she was hurt because Louis didn't like her) didn't provide any sources for this information, so it could be just an inference. As you know, authors sometimes do it.
 
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Perhaps there was no other "eligible" princes around that they (King Charles IV & Queen Maria Luisa) could marry to their daughter quickly so they picked  Infante Antonio Pascual? I don't fully understand it either, and Infante Antonio seemed to have hated Queen Maria Luisa.

Infante Antonio once criticized Queen Maria Luisa in a letter to his nephew Fernando, but I think it's unfair to make an assessment of their whole relationship just on the basis of one letter. It would be necessary to read more of their letters throughout the years in order to have a fairer assessment.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2011, 05:10:39 PM by trentk80 »
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Offline prinzheinelgirl

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Re: Spanish Bourbon Infantas
« Reply #38 on: May 09, 2011, 10:03:34 PM »
Infante Antonio once criticized Queen Maria Luisa in a letter to his nephew Fernando, but I think it's unfair to make an assessment of their whole relationship just on the basis of one letter. It would be necessary to read more of their letters throughout the years in order to have a fairer assessment.

You're right in here, trentk80. I wrote it because I seem to remember reading that Infante Antonio called Maria Luisa names (not flattering of course, was it a "lout"? I cant remember the exact term) but of course, he may have done it only at the heat of the moment. Or perhaps it's part of the 'demolition' job on ML, as we know she was much maligned and Infante Antonio probably never called her names. At any rate, it's possible to criticise someone and still like/love the person.  
« Last Edit: May 09, 2011, 10:13:45 PM by prinzheinelgirl »
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Offline trentk80

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Re: Spanish Bourbon Infantas
« Reply #39 on: May 11, 2011, 08:08:23 AM »
You're right in here, trentk80. I wrote it because I seem to remember reading that Infante Antonio called Maria Luisa names (not flattering of course, was it a "lout"? I cant remember the exact term) but of course, he may have done it only at the heat of the moment. Or perhaps it's part of the 'demolition' job on ML, as we know she was much maligned and Infante Antonio probably never called her names. At any rate, it's possible to criticise someone and still like/love the person. 

Infante Antonio wrote this letter in 1808, at the time of the Mutiny of Aranjuez, criticizing his brother Carlos IV and Maria Luisa for supporting Manuel Godoy. So yes, perhaps he did it only at the heat of the moment.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2011, 08:12:08 AM by trentk80 »
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Offline CountessKate

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Re: Spanish Bourbon Infantas
« Reply #40 on: May 11, 2011, 01:57:32 PM »
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The dress looks like 1790's style to me, but I could be wrong. Perhaps CountessKate knows if the dress and hairstyle are from the 1790's.


I would have to say that the dress and hair in the portrait looks rather more like one from the 1760s or at the latest, the early 1770s - the stiff pointed bodice, the high hair are similar to portraits of this period rather than to the 1790s.  If one looks at a portrait of Maria Amalia's exact contemporary, Maria Christina of Bourbon Two-Sicilies, the style is very different.  This is the latter, portrayed in 1790 by Vigee Le Brun:



Even allowing for Vigee Le Brun's informal style, the shape and structure of the gown and the hairstyle is quite different from the alleged Maria Amalia.  If one looks at at a more formal picture, however, of Carolina Maria Teresa of Parma, wife of Maximilian of Saxony, painted c. 1792 by Anton Graff, again the clothing and hairstyle is very different from the girl in the portrait under consideration:



And finally, looking at a more formal Vigee Le Brun portrait of Maria Christina’s oldest sister the Empress Maria Theresa, again painted in 1790, one has to say that the portrait of their supposed cousin Maria Amalia does not convince.  Maria Luisa was very much in the mode and I can’t see her putting her children into fashions of 20 years before. 

Offline Bourgogne

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Re: Spanish Bourbon Infantas
« Reply #41 on: May 11, 2011, 05:17:32 PM »
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I'm don't even sure the portrait on geneall.net is really her. As you say, MA is said to habe been unattractive and this girl is cute, and I think this dress and hairstyle are not very compatible with 1790 or even later (because this girl seems to be a least 11 y.o. and if it's Maria-Amalie that would make 1790...)

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The dress looks like 1790's style to me, but I could be wrong. Perhaps CountessKate knows if the dress and hairstyle are from the 1790's.


I would have to say that the dress and hair in the portrait looks rather more like one from the 1760s or at the latest, the early 1770s - the stiff pointed bodice, the high hair are similar to portraits of this period rather than to the 1790s.  If one looks at a portrait of Maria Amalia's exact contemporary, Maria Christina of Bourbon Two-Sicilies, the style is very different.  This is the latter, portrayed in 1790 by Vigee Le Brun:


That's exactly what I wanted to say when I wrote that Maria-Amelia's little picture wasn't really compatible with the fashion of the 1790's, for young girls.

I was precisely thinking to this portrait of Maria-Christina of Sicilies by Mme Vigée-Lebrun, and also to another exact contemporary, Madame Royale (Marie-Thérèse of France, Louis XVI's daughter) painted by Mme Vigée-Lebrun, by Wertmuller and by Dumont between 1785 and 1789. Everywhere we can see this same type of dress (more or less a "gaulle", the trend started by Marie-Antoinette), no corset but a high mousseline waistband, and of course the hair without powder and arranged in low soft curls...

So, I have strong doubts about the little picture of geneall.net... by the way I've noticed that there are sometimes some mistakes in the identifications of this site - like everywhere else, it's true.


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I think that the girl next to Infante Antonio in Goya's family portrait is Maria Amalia. Although she was dead, she was painted with the rest of the family as a way of stating that they still remembered her. Besides, it was common to have portraits of deceased royals made for their family. For instance, there were at least 3 portraits of her grandmother, Louise Elisabeth of France, which were painted after her death. Why? Because her family wanted to have portraits of their beloved late relative.

That's true. For example, in the famous "Louis XIV's family" by Jean Nocret, we can see Anne of Austria and Henrietta-Maria of France, and several children, who all were already dead when the picture was made. There is also many portraits of Louise-Elisabeth and her sister Henriette of France, who are also postumous, and so on...

I think that Maria-Amelia is indeed the woman on Goya's painting.

First because she's very close to Antonio, really like a husband and his wife.

And secondly because if it was Carlotta-Joaquina, why her husband wouldn't be there too? Maria-Louisa is in the picture with her husband Louis of Parma, so Carlotta-Joaquina should be with her husband the future Joao VI...


Offline trentk80

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Re: Spanish Bourbon Infantas
« Reply #42 on: May 12, 2011, 07:13:18 AM »
I would have to say that the dress and hair in the portrait looks rather more like one from the 1760s or at the latest, the early 1770s - the stiff pointed bodice, the high hair are similar to portraits of this period rather than to the 1790s.

Thanks for the information, CountessKate. However, it seems that the wide hoops, high hair and stiff pointed bodice were still used at the Spanish court in the late 18th century, as shown in this portrait of Infanta Carlota Joaquina from 1785:

http://www.museodelprado.es/coleccion/galeria-on-line/galeria-on-line/obra/carlota-joaquina-infanta-de-espana-reina-de-portugal/

Is it possible that the style survived a bit longer in Spain?

And secondly because if it was Carlotta-Joaquina, why her husband wouldn't be there too? Maria-Louisa is in the picture with her husband Louis of Parma, so Carlotta-Joaquina should be with her husband the future Joao VI...

According to some authors, Carlota Joaquina is the girl who turns her face away in Goya's family portrait. This was meant to represent that she was away in Portugal.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2011, 10:59:19 AM by trentk80 »
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Offline CountessKate

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Re: Spanish Bourbon Infantas
« Reply #43 on: May 15, 2011, 03:15:03 AM »
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However, it seems that the wide hoops, high hair and stiff pointed bodice were still used at the Spanish court in the late 18th century, as shown in this portrait of Infanta Carlota Joaquina from 1785

I agree there was clearly a survival in very formal court fashion for hoops and stiff bodices, but the hair style of the painting of Carlota Joaquina was in the style of the period and does not match the 'Maria Amalia' portrait.  If the latter is an informal portrait - which seems likely as she does not seem to be wearing hoops, and her dress and hair are very plain - then it appears contemporary with the 1760s or early '70s.  In an informal portrait one would expect her to look like her fashionable cousins in Italy and Austria and France, but in a formal portrait it is likely she would have all the trappings of the court princess, with fashionable hair and lots of trimmings and lace along with a stiff bodice and hoops.  Of course, I don't know enough about the portraiture of the court, and this could have been something knocked off by a local artist of no great significance for a family member for a keepsake, like a cheap photo - the results may not be exactly first class.  But as the correspondence between Maria Theresa and Marie Antoinette demonstrates, portraiture was a very important aspect of royal families' presentations of themselves, and the Spanish royal family were no exception, and used to the best quality.

Offline Mersan

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Re: Spanish Bourbon Infantas
« Reply #44 on: September 17, 2011, 10:19:28 AM »
In books I consulted. The young princess is described as a shy, homely, short and clumsy. His handsome cousin Louis of Parma, a thousand times better to marry Marie Louise, though she was not beautiful, if it was cheerful, lively and intelligent. The king saw that would be very difficult to get another advantageous marriage, they decided to marry her to her uncle Antonio Pascual, rude and stupid. preferred this, before his daughter ends up being a spinster.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2015, 01:10:08 PM by trentk80 »