discussion about Orthodoxy (2)

I am aware that we are getting into a topic that is not what this thread is about.  If people want to pm about this, that's ok with me......

It's not really off-topic, is it?  :-/ It still connects with discussing Orthodox Christianity and comparing it to Orthodox Judaism??

I would agree with your teacher about matricide - it is shamefully true and totally unChristian though carried out in the name of Christianity (which IMO makes it all the worse.) The same could be said for the Crusades against Islam. Some saint once wrote:
"If we Christians truly lived as followers of Christ, non-believers would be more surprised at our lives than any miracles." But - through St. Paul, I agree, closely followed by Augustine & many others - Christianity has been distorted and it is a great wrong, I think.

Jesus Himself was first & foremost a Jew - He stated several times, "I have come to the lost sheep of the House of Israel..." He told His disciples to go only to Jewish villages and towns...

Yes.  Jesus was a Jew and although it's not clear in the NT, we can tell from the life of his brother James that Jesus was a strictly observant Jew.  

Unfortunately, the Jesus movement was taken over by Paul and some gentiles and the traditions were distorted......

He is not seen as a prophet.  He left no writings as the other prophets did.  He is not recognized as having a message from God to the Jewish people that was valid.  If anything, he is considered a false prophet per the description of one in Deuteronomy.

Anyone who studies the Talmud knows what Jesus was considered to be.  Let us not misrepresent Judaism, please.  

In this case I will trust Finelly and not the FA.
Sorry Rob

elf

Finelly
-about HUGE ontological differences… I still disagree and would like to know [maybe on a private correspondence?] what do you mean; I confess that all I know about Judaism is from my Church; I agree that St. Paul put Christianity on another “track” changing the rule of the Law for the rule of Love, but this is still an ONTIC difference… we may live in very different “worlds” but the inner nature of these worlds is historically the same;[philosophically assuming that such a statement can be made ]



Forum Adm.
-I didn’t even know even if Judaism recognized Christ as a historical figure; see how ignorant I am?  :-/



Bluetoria
-about St. Paul… I strongly disagree [still laughing though]; it is a common place today to blame St. Paul for the “distortions” of the Christian message but I find that usually people who do this have a strong ethical [thanks Finelly!] attachment to the modern world [I mean to “progress”, “efficiency”]; St. Paul has put Love above the Law and even above Faith itself, something that you Buletoria are using as an argument against him when you say that creeds have to be softened to include the “others”. A very “post-modern” trend isn’t it?
-about “apostolic succession”… I think it is very important. One of the things I admire at the Jewish People is their sturdy sense of HISTORY and the link that they make between their own happiness and history itself, something that we moderns have lost. The nature of history makes A.S. important. Of course A.S. can be abused to gain power but the Gospel reassures us that the Gates of Hell will not prevail upon the Church. Dostoievsky’s Myth of the Grand Inquisitor hasn’t made him “rebel” against the clergy or seek an “authentic” Christianity outside the Tradition of the Church. I am reassured by the continuous chain of saints in the Church, up to this day, that the clergy is not the last authority in the Church. At least in the Orthodox Church the “saintly man” has greater authority among the faithful than the clergy.
-I knew you would have sweet dreams if I would wish them to you  

Jesus is seen as a "prophet" by the Jewish religion. He was said to be trained in the Temple, and his actions were to call the Jewish people back to their original orthodox ways (ie: chasing out the money changers, etc.)

Actually Jesus, the son of Mary - is a respected prophet and spiritual figure in Islam, as is his mother.

Not ignoring the request for elaboration on the ontological differences....just about to go out to lunch and then will decide whether to post, or do pm.

I just want to make SURE that it is clear that I respect christianity and christians in general, so that if this conversation continues, it is not construed as an attack on your religious beliefs, ok?

OK, I never thought otherwise!
And please be "gentle" with my ignorance in this matter

Finelly
-about the use of "Orthodoxy" without the add of "Christian" or "Church"... I think that in the context of this forum it isn't difficult to know what we are talking about; it is just for being more "efficient", nothing else; if you wish I can change it to Eastern-Orthodox Christianity, or Byzantine Christian Tradition, or something like that, but these "correct" names tend to be too long, isn't it?

rskkiya
-at least this much I know that Mary [for me "Theotokos"] and Jesus [for me "Christ"] are revered in Islam, and can confirm you are right

Palimpset - you bet.  In the context of this board, it's obvious what "orthodoxy" one is talking about!  It's just that my eye is attracted to the word, lol.

There are a number of fundamental differences between Judaism and christianity.  I will, with your permission, begin to list a few.  However, if people become offended, I will stop and continue with anyone who wishes in pm.  Again, I mean no disrespect toward christianity or believers in Jesus as I write this.  

1.  Judaism does not teach that one must adhere to one certain religion in order to have a place in the World to Come or to receive God's blessings.  All that is required is that one "seek justice, strive for mercy, and walk humbly with God."

2.  Judaism does not accept the concept of original sin.  The first sin mentioned as a sin in the bible occurs in the story of Cain and Abel.  We do not believe that humans are born with flawed souls.  All souls are born as blank slates.  

3.  Judaism does not teach that evil is a separate entity in the form of Satan or another being.  All humans have both evil and good impulses within us.  The disciplining of the evil is done by observing the commandments and living a righteous life.  We do not want to abolish the evil impulse, as it is the motivating force behind many good things.  We also believe that evil is created by God, just as good is.

That's a start.

There are a number of fundamental differences between Judaism and christianity.  I will, with your permission, begin to list a few.  However, if people become offended, I will stop and continue with anyone who wishes in pm.  Again, I mean no disrespect toward christianity or believers in Jesus as I write this.  

1.  Judaism does not teach that one must adhere to one certain religion in order to have a place in the World to Come or to receive God's blessings.  All that is required is that one "seek justice, strive for mercy, and walk humbly with God."

2.  Judaism does not accept the concept of original sin.  The first sin mentioned as a sin in the bible occurs in the story of Cain and Abel.  We do not believe that humans are born with flawed souls.  All souls are born as blank slates.  

3.  Judaism does not teach that evil is a separate entity in the form of Satan or another being.  All humans have both evil and good impulses within us.  The disciplining of the evil is done by observing the commandments and living a righteous life.  We do not want to abolish the evil impulse, as it is the motivating force behind many good things.  We also believe that evil is created by God, just as good is.

That's a start.

Wow!
This is very interesting as these three points are the exact notions which I -as a non christian- could never come to terms with. In my attempts to comprehend this belief system these concepts always stymied me...Hmmmm.


rs

More differences between Judaism and christianity:

4.  Judaism does not distinguish between the body and the soul.  There is no "carnal" vs. "sacred" with regard to the human body.  Sexuality is celebrated.  The concept of fasting or punishing our bodies in any way, as well as celibacy, is pretty much forbidden except on certain holidays - for 24 hours.

5.  The christian concept of "salvation" and "Salvation from sin" is not a Jewish one.  When the term "salvation" is used in the Jewish scriptures, it refers to God saving us from exile or destruction, not sin.   We do not view sin in the same way, nor is forgiveness from sin achieved in the same way.  

6.  You do not have to believe in God to be a Jew.  You do not have to believe in God to be a good Jew.  Inability to believe, or strong doubt, is not penalized in Judaism or by God.  One example of this is Elie Wiesel, whose entire family perished in the holocaust.  He lost his faith.  He decided that he would be an observant Jew in spite of what the Nazis did, because not to do so would be letting them "win".  So he led, and continues to lead, an orthodox lifestyle, following the commandments.  I believe his faith has returned slowly, or perhaps not.  But he is a good Jew and was even then.

By this, may I presume that - using such a definition -Judaism is as much a set of dietary/behaviour principals as it is a religion?
Or am I misunderstanding something?