Author Topic: Grand Duchess Maria Nikolayevna, and her descendants  (Read 182325 times)

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Offline Svetabel

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Re: Grand Duchess Maria Nikolayevna, and her descendants
« Reply #165 on: February 11, 2010, 01:36:24 AM »
Other Leuchtenbergs

Duke Georgiy with his daughter Elena



Duke Sergei Georgievitch, 2nd son of Duke Georgiy


Offline Svetabel

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Re: Grand Duchess Maria Nikolayevna, and her descendants
« Reply #166 on: February 11, 2010, 01:38:33 AM »
In looking for information on the descendants of Olga and Xenia Contantinovna von Leuchtenberg (daughters of Constantin Georgevich von Leuchtenberg and Darya Alexievna Obolensky). Most genealogies mention their marriages, but fail to indicate any children/grandchildren.
Thank you.

A quick Internet search yielded the following information:

Duke Constantine von Leuchtenberg (1905-1983) m.1929 Princess Daria Obolensky (1903-1982)



Here's Duke Konstantin, grandson of Duke Nikolay (see above) with his spouse Daria.


Offline ndow

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Re: Grand Duchess Maria Nikolayevna, and her descendants
« Reply #167 on: February 13, 2010, 11:43:55 AM »
Hi Guys,

  This is my first time to post here.  I am hoping someone can settle a dispute.  The Faberge Museum in Baden has posted on it's website a picture of a necklace with a double MM cipher surmounted by a Russian imperial crown.  They attribute this jewel to Maria Nikolayevna's daughter Marie Maximilianovna.  This is the link to that pic:  http://www.rnm.ru/index.php?id=41&m=261.  A friend says this must be a fraud because Marie Maximilianovna was not entitled to the use of an imperial symbol as she was a Leuchtenberg.  I thought that because of her adoption into the imperial family, she would be entitled. at least during the time between the adoption and her marriage.  Can anyone with a bigger library help me out here? Were the Leuchtenbergs entitled to use the Imperial Crown in their monograms? 

  Two, can someone recommend a book showing the coat of arms (pictured on page one) that I can use as a reference--because that is the Imperial Crown shown.

Thanks.

Offline Svetabel

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Re: Grand Duchess Maria Nikolayevna, and her descendants
« Reply #168 on: February 14, 2010, 12:42:40 AM »
Hi Guys,

  This is my first time to post here.  I am hoping someone can settle a dispute.  The Faberge Museum in Baden has posted on it's website a picture of a necklace with a double MM cipher surmounted by a Russian imperial crown.  They attribute this jewel to Maria Nikolayevna's daughter Marie Maximilianovna.  This is the link to that pic:  http://www.rnm.ru/index.php?id=41&m=261.  A friend says this must be a fraud because Marie Maximilianovna was not entitled to the use of an imperial symbol as she was a Leuchtenberg.  I thought that because of her adoption into the imperial family, she would be entitled. at least during the time between the adoption and her marriage.  Can anyone with a bigger library help me out here? Were the Leuchtenbergs entitled to use the Imperial Crown in their monograms? 

  Two, can someone recommend a book showing the coat of arms (pictured on page one) that I can use as a reference--because that is the Imperial Crown shown.

Thanks.

Maria Maximilianovna was not a Grand Duchess as the site refers but she was the Imperial Highness. In 1852 Tzar Nicholas I granted the Imperial Highness title to the children of GDss Maria Nikolyaevna.

Here's coat of arms of the Leuchtenbergs:


Offline ndow

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Re: Grand Duchess Maria Nikolayevna, and her descendants
« Reply #169 on: February 14, 2010, 10:17:29 AM »
Thanks Swetabel for your reply!

  Unfortunately, I do not know enough about the history of Russian titles and the Imperial Family to know if that answered my question.  Could this necklace pendant, http://www.rnm.ru/index.php?id=41&m=261, have been made for Maria Maximilianovna?  I know it would have been for her to give away, but is that actually her cipher?  Would she as a Leuchtenberg been allowed the use of the Russian Imperial Crown on ciphers/monograms.  And during what period in her life?  I know after her marriage she would have the use of the Baden iconography.  But would she have commissioned this piece?  Would the granting of the title Imperial Highness to the children of Maria Nikolayevna given them the privilege under, Russian law, of using the Russian Imperial Crown on stationary, presentation pieces, and so forth?  Or is this jewel misidentified entirely?

Many thanks to anyone who can help teach me.

Offline Svetabel

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Re: Grand Duchess Maria Nikolayevna, and her descendants
« Reply #170 on: February 15, 2010, 12:36:41 AM »
Could this necklace pendant, http://www.rnm.ru/index.php?id=41&m=261, have been made for Maria Maximilianovna?  I know it would have been for her to give away, but is that actually her cipher?  Would she as a Leuchtenberg been allowed the use of the Russian Imperial Crown on ciphers/monograms.  And during what period in her life?  I know after her marriage she would have the use of the Baden iconography.  But would she have commissioned this piece?  Would the granting of the title Imperial Highness to the children of Maria Nikolayevna given them the privilege under, Russian law, of using the Russian Imperial Crown on stationary, presentation pieces, and so forth?  Or is this jewel misidentified entirely?

Many thanks to anyone who can help teach me.

Once granted the title of Imperial Highness couldn't be taken away. As MM was the Imperial Highness since 1852 year she had the right to use this title all her life. Her title in Russia sounds like: "Her Imperial Highness Duchess Maria Maximilianovna, Princess of Baden", so as well as with other Russian Romanov women or their close relatives her title by birth was on the 1st place.
I can't say anything exactly about her cipher but that one on the site COULD be hers as the IH title gave a right to use the Imperial Crown on the ciphers and so on...
By the way, if that piece is by Faberge it can't be given to her when she was marrying Prince of Baden in 1863. That pendant could be made in 1880-1890s when Faberge House was getting fashionable.

Offline ndow

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Re: Grand Duchess Maria Nikolayevna, and her descendants
« Reply #171 on: February 16, 2010, 12:07:34 AM »
Thanks, Svetabel.
I really appreciate the info.

Naslednik Norvezhskiy

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Re: Grand Duchess Maria Nikolayevna, and her descendants
« Reply #172 on: February 17, 2010, 12:11:16 AM »
Just returning for Mardi Gras, day of extravagant self-indulgence.

Here's coat of arms of the Leuchtenbergs:


Yes, that's the arms of the Russian Dukes and Duchesses of Leuchtenberg (seems like daughters like Maria also were entitled to use the ducal title under the Russian (re-)grant), topped by a princely/ducal cap and with the second quarter in the original Bavarian grant missing, because it referred to the Principality of Eichstätt, which was secularized church property which I understand Duke Maximilian returned to the Bavarian Government when he married Maria Nikolaievna and settled in Russia. With the refund he bought estates in Tambov Governate.

BTW - does anybody know what the second quarter (third quarter in the original grant), a sword on a green field with golden stars, represents? Some allusion to Eugène de Beauharnais' military career?
(The blue fess is the ancient arms of the Landgraviate of Leuchtenberg and the black fess with the ducks are the Beauharnais arms.)

But - as Her Imperial Highness, Princess Romanovskaya, Maria Maximilovna was entitled to use these arms (on a golden lozenge crowned with the Imperial Crown, the Imperial Eagle) as her lesser arms. This according to this wonderful Russian site, which shows the heraldic achievements of all types of members of the Imperial Family (the Princes Romanovsky are at the bottom):Гербы императорской фамилии.

According to the same site and the Russian Wikipedia article on the Leuchtenbergs, the great arms of the Leuchtenbergs as Their Imperial Highnesses, Princes and Princesses Romanovsky were:
Большой герб князей Романовских - золотой двуглавый орел с четверочастным щитком на груди. В щитках:
1) и 4) голубой пояс в серебре;
2) серебряный меч в зелени, в главе шесть золотых звезд;
3) черный пояс и три черные птицы на серебре;
В щитке на золотом поле красный вензель императора Николая I. Щит увенчан герцогской короной. Главный щит увенчан шлемом Александра Невского. Вокруг - цепь ордена Андрея Первозванного. Намет - золото и чернь. Щитодержателия - два золотых грифа с красными глазами и языками. Вместо сени - золотая мантия, усеянная черными двуглавыми орлами, подложенная горностаем; над нею императорская корона.

(roughly)=
On a shield with the Imperial Eagle an inescutcheon crowned with a ducal cap with the four ducal Leuchtenberg quarters above and over-all an inescutcheon  with the golden monogramm of Nicholas I on red. The whole adorned with such trappings as the helmet of Alexander Nevsky, orders, griffins as supporters and eagle-studded golden, ermine-lined Imperial mantle, crowned with the Imperial Crown.

So yes, there is also heraldic evidence of Maria Maximilovna being entitled to use the Imperial Crown, like Svetabel already confirmed.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2010, 12:35:06 AM by Rœrik »

Naslednik Norvezhskiy

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Re: Grand Duchess Maria Nikolayevna, and her descendants
« Reply #173 on: February 17, 2010, 01:54:25 AM »
Here is a link to an image of the great arms described above, with the accurate description. You can just make out Nicholas I's monogramm in the inescutcheon: Герб князей Романовских, герцогов Лейхтенбергских.

Offline Dru

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Re: Grand Duchess Maria Nikolayevna, and her descendants
« Reply #174 on: February 17, 2010, 08:46:30 PM »


Maria Nikolaevna by Vladimir Hau.

Naslednik Norvezhskiy

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Re: Grand Duchess Maria Nikolayevna, and her descendants
« Reply #175 on: February 21, 2010, 02:52:57 AM »
Yes, that's the arms of the Russian Dukes and Duchesses of Leuchtenberg (seems like daughters like Maria also were entitled to use the ducal title under the Russian (re-)grant), topped by a princely/ducal cap and with the second quarter in the original Bavarian grant missing, because it referred to the Principality of Eichstätt, which was secularized church property which I understand Duke Maximilian returned to the Bavarian Government when he married Maria Nikolaievna and settled in Russia. With the refund he bought estates in Tambov Governate.
Correction: Although the Eichstätt residence and property was returned to Bavaria in the 1850s, I see that the big sale which earned them 20 million (roubles?, thalers?, anyway a fortune) was of property in the Marche province of the Papal States, and they sold to the Pope. It was probably something left from their ancestor's time as Viceroy of Italy.

And - does anybody know where in the Tambov Governate their estate(s) were? I have searched but found nothing, but remain interested, as I see that Tambov Governate borders the Voronezh Governate where the Oldenburgs had their estate Ramon. Ramon lies outside the city of Voronezh, just where the extremely fertile Black Soil farmland meets a huge forest, probably well suited for picnics and hunting. I see that the city of Tambov has a similar location, bordering a huge forest in the middle of the flat Black Soil farmland, so it would be interesting to know if the Leuchtenbergs enjoyed a similiarly attractive property. And of course I am curious about what their estate looked like. (And how much of the Tambov Governate you could buy with 20 million!)
« Last Edit: February 21, 2010, 03:18:22 AM by Rœrik »

Offline Marc

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Re: Grand Duchess Maria Nikolayevna, and her descendants
« Reply #176 on: February 23, 2010, 09:46:12 AM »
One question:Who would take a precedence in the case of two cousins:Princess Elena von Leuchtenberg(daughter of Anastasia and George) as an Imperial Highness or for example her cousin Her Royal Highness Princess Helena Petrovna of Russia?Does the Imperial Highness of Leuchtenberg family outranks for example a Princess who is a Royal Highness or just Her Highness but a member of a ruling family who doesn't have the style of Imperial Highness?

Offline Teddy

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Re: Grand Duchess Maria Nikolayevna, and her descendants
« Reply #177 on: February 23, 2010, 03:47:50 PM »
If you mean Helena Petrovna who married the son of KR, I think she is ranked above her cousin because her husband had still rights to the throne trough the male line and Elena has her rights trough the female line.

Offline Marc

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Re: Grand Duchess Maria Nikolayevna, and her descendants
« Reply #178 on: February 23, 2010, 06:50:43 PM »
Yes,I thought of her just as example because she was a Royal Highness which is below the Imperial Highness held by Princess Elena von Leuchtenberg for example,but also wonder about the situation of other Princesses of Blood who were styled just Highness on contrast to Leuchtenbergs who were all Imperial Highnesses so don't know who will take the precedence?Member of a ruling House with succession rights to the Throne through male line only styled Highness or member of non-ruling House with succession rights to the Throne through female line styled Imperial Highness which outranks just plane Highness?


Offline Teddy

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Re: Grand Duchess Maria Nikolayevna, and her descendants
« Reply #179 on: February 24, 2010, 02:47:56 AM »
http://www.alexanderpalace.org/wedding/

If we look at the wedding ceremony of the Tsar and the Empress in 1894 I think we can read the answer.