Author Topic: What was the reason Jane Boleyn aided and abetted Katherine Howard...  (Read 33651 times)

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Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: What was the reason Jane Boleyn aided and abetted Katherine Howard...
« Reply #30 on: September 26, 2007, 08:12:17 AM »
It never occurred to me that Madge Shelton (one of Henry's potential paramours), was Jane's younger sister.

Are you serious? So Jane was related to Anne then? They always talked about Madge being Anne's cousin... Hw exactly are they related to the Boleyns?

Tell us more! I may have to get this book...

Offline Kimberly

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Re: What was the reason Jane Boleyn aided and abetted Katherine Howard...
« Reply #31 on: September 26, 2007, 08:47:09 AM »
Oops no, there are 2 Margaret Sheltons BUT Anne and "Madge" Shelton were related.
Thomas Boleyn was Anne's father and his sister, another Anne (our Anne's aunt) married John Shelton. Madge was one of their daughters. Their son,Sir John Shelton married Margaret Parker who was Jane's sister. Therefore Madge was anne's first cousin and the other Margaret Shelton (Jane Parker's sister) was married to Margaret (Madge) Shelton's brother. Good lord, how confusing it can be....I think I need a nice cup of tea and a piece of cake.  :)
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Offline Kimberly

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Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: What was the reason Jane Boleyn aided and abetted Katherine Howard...
« Reply #33 on: September 26, 2007, 09:20:15 AM »
OMG, that's confusing!

Offline bell_the_cat

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Re: What was the reason Jane Boleyn aided and abetted Katherine Howard...
« Reply #34 on: September 26, 2007, 05:46:40 PM »
There's a new book out about Jane Boleyn - it's called " that Rochford woman" or something like that. It's very pro Jane -early example of a woman making her own way but coming up against the "glass ceiling"!!

Anyone else seen it?
Never put off until tomorrow what you can put off until the day after tomorrow. (Mark Twain)

Offline Mari

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Re: What was the reason Jane Boleyn aided and abetted Katherine Howard...
« Reply #35 on: September 27, 2007, 02:52:10 AM »
Between the Boleyn's and the other family the  Howards ( separately and together)   how much inter-marriage was the rule between Cousins? I know that this was common at that time but between first Cousins even in the Royal Circles and outer circles of Nobility .... English and French there was an awful lot of marriage. I wonder how much disease in the Boleyn family and what kind was caused by all this? It seems like I constantly run into someone marrying the First cousin or the King has an affair with this Sister and then that Sister or even marries the Family twice as say Henry VIII did with first Anne Boleyn and then her Cousin Katherine Howard! If anyone has run into a book about this let me have the Title please. The Jane Boleyn Book looks really interesting!  :)

Offline Kimberly

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Re: What was the reason Jane Boleyn aided and abetted Katherine Howard...
« Reply #36 on: October 13, 2007, 04:34:59 PM »
Oakie doakie then. I think that Jane Boleyn is possibly a much-maligned woman.
Here is a bit of background; The patroness of Jane's family was none other than Lady Margaret Beaufort. Indeed it was she who brokered the marriage between Jane's parents and helped pay the christening expenses for Jane and her siblings.Jane was brought to court and was one of the maidens who performed in the "Chateau Vert" masque, (possibly the entertainment at which Henry first noticed Anne Boleyn). Jane had the world before her when she left home for the Tudor court-marrying a young man (George Boleyn) of her own age and from an up and coming family. She was destined to be the mistress of Hever and Blickling. Was it a "bad" marriage? well, she repeated Anne's secret (about Henry's sexual failure) to George, which in itself implies a relaxed rather than a failed union.She confessed the same to Cromwell- perhaps buckling under the pressure of relentless questioning. However, she said no more than that.
Jane didnot appear in person at the trial of Anne or George. In fact,the weight of opinion at the time was in favour of George's acquittal until he read aloud from the paper he was handed, referring to Henry's lack of potency. This was the only time Jane's name cropped up at the Boleyn trials.
Sir John Spelman, who sat on the bench throughout, didnot touch on Jane at all. Instead, he wrote that the incriminating evidence against Anne came from LADY WINGFIELD.
Cromwell,(who had all the "information" he needed to condemn Anne directly from Smeaton's confession), simply made general remarks on the disgust at Anne's conduct felt by the Ladies of the Bedchamber. Jane had no need to slander her husband- the financial implications alone wuld have been ruinous.
She carved a career for herself after George's death but threw it all away when faced with the demands of Catherine Howard. To put it simply,she was addicted to the "celebrity" of the court and supporting Catherine's "naughtiness" cost Jane her reputation and her head.
So what was she guilty of...Anne's death ? Surely the blame for that lies squarely at Henry's feet. Anne would not or couldnot change her role from Mistress to suppliant wife and that was not what Henry wanted. She didnot inform against Catherine Howard when she had good reason to do so. She didnot bring down the Boleyns but she was guilty of of helping Catherine conduct an illicit affair. It was for this and no other reason that Jane died.
As for the chalk drawing of "Lady Parker"by Holbein (its around here somewhere), Jane was never "Lady Parker". When Holbein arrived in England she had been married to George for two years and was Lady Rochford by the time the artist returned to England.
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Offline Kimberly

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Re: What was the reason Jane Boleyn aided and abetted Katherine Howard...
« Reply #37 on: October 13, 2007, 04:38:10 PM »
I'd loe to know what the dirt was that Lady Wingfield had about Anne!!!!!
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Offline Mari

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Re: What was the reason Jane Boleyn aided and abetted Katherine Howard...
« Reply #38 on: October 14, 2007, 02:03:29 AM »
   

http://books.google.com/books?id=dQIExqMDvMEC&pg=PP1&dq=the+rise+and+fall+of+anne+boleyn&ei=yL8RR6LLKIWY7wLilJTQBw&sig=jb7w7aCpbs841DZm5cE1CvGCXuY#PPA227,M1

The Rise and Fall of Anne Boleyn: Family Politics at the Court of Henry VIII by Retha M. Warnicke  page 227-228

Quote
Lady Wingfield apparently testified from the Grave. Shortly before her Death apparently as early as 1533 she had conveyed to a Confidante some information about Anne's Sexual habits that may have taken place before She was officially recognized as the King's Wife. How the Statement was discovered is unknown but it can be speculated that it was revealed by Thomas Harvey, a son of Lady Wingfield's second Husband by his first Wife who was a Sister to FitzWilliam. The Testimony has been lost but special consideration was given it  by Contemporaries  including one of the Judges Sir John Spelman attached special significance to it as a Deathbed Statement. It essentially  meant that Anne had been a Libertine prior to 1533 and   it made the other incredible charges that she had been in  Carnal  Relations with with five men  seem plausible.

Interesting also is this "Probably this public trial with the embarassing claims that five men had cuckolded the King had been  been considered necessary as a precautionary measure in case  word leaked out about the Fetus."
« Last Edit: October 14, 2007, 02:10:16 AM by Mari »

Offline dmitri

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Re: What was the reason Jane Boleyn aided and abetted Katherine Howard...
« Reply #39 on: October 14, 2007, 03:57:56 AM »
I tend to think Anne Boleyn was a case of a severe case of injustice. As for her brother George he went to his death as an innocent. Henry wanted Anne dead. He had already become involved with Jane Seymour.

Offline Kimberly

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Re: What was the reason Jane Boleyn aided and abetted Katherine Howard...
« Reply #40 on: October 14, 2007, 03:58:05 PM »
Absolutely, Dmitri.
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Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: What was the reason Jane Boleyn aided and abetted Katherine Howard...
« Reply #41 on: October 15, 2007, 01:46:28 PM »
Going back to the original topic: what do you think was the reason Jane Boleyn risked her life by aiding and abetting Katherine Howard in her adultery?