Author Topic: Elisabeth I and Ivan the Terrible  (Read 14965 times)

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Offline Frederika

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Elisabeth I and Ivan the Terrible
« on: July 16, 2005, 04:01:56 AM »
i read once that Queen Elisabeth I had an agreement with Ivan the terrible that ment he could seek exile in england if it ever be needed

bluetoria

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Re: Elisabeth I and Ivan the Terrible
« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2005, 06:59:30 AM »
Ivan had written to Elizabeth I earlier, criticising her advisers and calling her 'an old maid' which didn't go down well! When he wrote and asked her if he might have political asylum in England, she replied (amusingly) that he could come if he paid for his own journey and then paid for his own upkeep. (Basically she was saying, I guess, that he could come to England like any other foreign person, but she wasn't going to support him!  ;D ;D)

Offline ilyala

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Re: Elisabeth I and Ivan the Terrible
« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2005, 07:03:32 AM »
he tried twice to convince her to something of the sort but he failed.

towards the end of the reign he even wanted to marry an englishwoman, more exactly lady mary hastings who was queen elizabeth's cousin (daughter of the count of huntington). elizabeth didn't agree with the match and told the russian ambassador that the lady was desfigured due to small pox and that she was ill.

a year later he saw lady mary and noticed she was not desfigured. in the end elizabeth sent a letter to ivan telling him that mary didn't want the match and she couldn't be forced to accept...

everything that came of the whole thing was a carriage that elizabeth sent ivan and that can be found at the science museum in london nowadays. :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by ilyala »
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Offline Frederika

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Re: Elisabeth I and Ivan the Terrible
« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2005, 10:04:02 AM »
King James I gave Tsar Boris I a Carridge as well its now in the Kremlin

Offline lexi4

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Re: Elisabeth I and Ivan the Terrible
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2005, 11:48:19 AM »
Quote
he tried twice to convince her to something of the sort but he failed.

towards the end of the reign he even wanted to marry an englishwoman, more exactly lady mary hastings who was queen elizabeth's cousin (daughter of the count of huntington). elizabeth didn't agree with the match and told the russian ambassador that the lady was desfigured due to small pox and that she was ill.

a year later he saw lady mary and noticed she was not desfigured. in the end elizabeth sent a letter to ivan telling him that mary didn't want the match and she couldn't be forced to accept...

everything that came of the whole thing was a carriage that elizabeth sent ivan and that can be found at the science museum in london nowadays. :)

Why was he so desperate to get to England????
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely, in a pretty and well preserved body; but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming, "Wow ---- What a ride!!!"

Offline ilyala

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Re: Elisabeth I and Ivan the Terrible
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2005, 07:36:06 AM »
notice the nickname 'the terrible' ;D

he wasn't a very popular tsar. he probably feared he would be dethroned (felt guilty about something...?  ::))
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rskkiya

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Re: Elisabeth I and Ivan the Terrible
« Reply #6 on: July 19, 2005, 01:09:34 PM »
Ivan was also taking medication for his severe arthritis (arsenic I think) which is a poison and may have made him even more paranoid than he normally was!

I have tried to imagine an 'alternative history' with a slightly younger Lizzie and a wee bit less insane Ivan in a curious Anglo Russian Empire... Hmmmm ;)



Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: Elisabeth I and Ivan the Terrible
« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2005, 04:13:26 PM »
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notice the nickname 'the terrible' ;D

he wasn't a very popular tsar. he probably feared he would be dethroned (felt guilty about something...?  ::))


Actually in Russian, "Ivan Grozny" doesn't mean "the Terrible" but more like "Awesome" or "Fearsome", but it's meant in a more positive way than the way it sounds when translated into English. I don't think Ivan was as much an unpopular tsar, as he was feared but also respected. I think Russians, as a nation, tend to have more respect for rulers whom they see as "strong" rather than those whom they see as "weak". Hence, Peter the Great is greatly respected to this day, even though he could be quite cruel in his day, whereas someone like Nicholas II was not respected and perceived as too "wimpy"...  

P.S. I read somewhere that Ivan had lead poisoning in his brain, hence his behavior...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by helenazar »

Offline ilyala

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Re: Elisabeth I and Ivan the Terrible
« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2005, 12:05:16 PM »
his mother was poisoned when he was a child... he  might have been traumatized a little by that  :-/
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Offline Tsarfan

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Re: Elisabeth I and Ivan the Terrible
« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2005, 02:58:18 PM »
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I don't think Ivan was as much an unpopular tsar, as he was feared but also respected. I think Russians, as a nation, tend to have more respect for rulers whom they see as "strong" rather than those whom they see as "weak".


I agree.  In fact, Ivan brought the fractious boyars to heel at one point by threatening to abdicate.  It instantly consolidated public support behind Ivan's taking strong action to whip the boyars into line.  Even those who viewed Ivan as a despot probably preferred the one despot to the legions of mini-despots that would be unleashed upon them by an unbridled nobility.

Offline Elisabeth

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Re: Elisabeth I and Ivan the Terrible
« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2005, 05:07:22 AM »
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I agree.  In fact, Ivan brought the fractious boyars to heel at one point by threatening to abdicate.  It instantly consolidated public support behind Ivan's taking strong action to whip the boyars into line.  Even those who viewed Ivan as a despot probably preferred the one despot to the legions of mini-despots that would be unleashed upon them by an unbridled nobility.


I hate to disagree with you here, Tsarfan, but the terror unleashed by Ivan's oprichniki encompassed all levels of Russian society, not merely the boyar class, and, combined with the Livonian War, had a disastrous impact on the Russian economy as a whole. Contemporary descriptions of Russia in the last years of Ivan's rule depict a devastated land and people. I think the appellation "Groznyi" ("Terrible" or "Awesome") was originally ascribed to Ivan IV because of his youthful victories over the khanates of Kazan and Astrakhan, which signalled the expansion of the Russian state into areas inhabited by non-Russians and Muslims, and thus the true beginning of the imperial period.
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Offline Tsarfan

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Re: Elisabeth I and Ivan the Terrible
« Reply #11 on: July 31, 2005, 07:21:05 AM »
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I hate to disagree with you here, Tsarfan, but the terror unleashed by Ivan's oprichniki encompassed all levels of Russian society, not merely the boyar class, and, combined with the Livonian War, had a disastrous impact on the Russian economy as a whole.


Glad you disagreed, Elisabeth.  You're right.

My observation referred to the situation at the moment Ivan threatened to abdicate, and that situation clearly was not representative of his larger reign . . . and I failed to draw the distinction.  Your analysis of the situation is spot on.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Tsarfan »

Offline RussMan

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Elizabeth and Ivan
« Reply #12 on: October 05, 2005, 04:53:47 PM »
I've been studying this pair, and English/Russian trade relations under their reigns. Seems to me that Ivan was a bit too transparent in his dealings with Eizabeth, and this was waht drove her  and her countrymen away from him.

From what i've read, English trade with Russia seems to peak in the late sixteenth century, then declines in the seventeenth.

Just a thought. ;)
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Offline bell_the_cat

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Re: Elizabeth and Ivan
« Reply #13 on: October 07, 2005, 04:13:43 PM »
Hi RussMan!

Do you know what it was that was being traded? I'd always thought it was furs, but it may well have been timber for shipbuilding. After the time of troubles Russia was cut off from the Baltic trade, which may be why the trade with England declined. there are a lot of pubs still called "the Baltic Tavern" to commemorate this link.
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David_Pritchard

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Re: Elisabeth I and Ivan the Terrible
« Reply #14 on: October 13, 2005, 03:22:33 AM »
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Ivan was also taking medication for his severe arthritis (arsenic I think) which is a poison and may have made him even more paranoid than he normally was!

I have tried to imagine an 'alternative history' with a slightly younger Lizzie and a wee bit less insane Ivan in a curious Anglo Russian Empire... Hmmmm ;)




The use of arsenic for medicinal purposes was not unusual. All sorts of toxic heavy metals were used in ladies' cosmetics at this time including lead, arsenic and cyanide.