Author Topic: Re: Lady Jane Grey  (Read 47190 times)

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Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: Lady Jane Grey
« Reply #75 on: March 30, 2009, 06:48:25 PM »
Maybe I'm jumping the gun a little, but looks like it'll be another pro-Jane/anti-Mary book. I'd take issue with the statement from the little blurb - I woudn't call Jane 'one of the least studied figures of English history'. Plenty has been written about her (although most has been rubbish).  Also, I'd be interested to read his argument that Jane had 'strong legal grounds' for her claim to the throne - Edward VI's will could not overturn an act of parliament (in this case the 1544 Act of Succession) and in any case, as a minor, any will he made would have no validity in law. I know Northumberland wanted to change the law so Edward would achieve his majority at 15 (or 16?) but I'm not sure if this ever actually happened.
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Offline Silja

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Re: Lady Jane Grey
« Reply #76 on: April 01, 2009, 01:52:13 PM »
Plenty has been written about her (although most has been rubbish).  Also, I'd be interested to read his argument that Jane had 'strong legal grounds' for her claim to the throne - Edward VI's will could not overturn an act of parliament (in this case the 1544 Act of Succession) and in any case, as a minor, any will he made would have no validity in law. I know Northumberland wanted to change the law so Edward would achieve his majority at 15 (or 16?) but I'm not sure if this ever actually happened.

But there hasn't been a serious individual study of hers, and as Ives is reknown for thorough research I'm having some expectations here. Nevertheless, I'm also skeptical about what these "strong legal grounds" might have been. To me the case seems quite clear.

Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: Lady Jane Grey
« Reply #77 on: April 01, 2009, 05:14:20 PM »
I'm almost certain Alison Plowden wrote a biography of her, I've not read it though. I'm inclinced towards the belief that although it certainly wasn't her idea to take the throne, but that once she did take it, she took on the role with a certain degree of enthusiasm, and probably would have become quite an autocratic monarch if she'd been given the chance. It's often forgotten that Mary had Jane sentenced to death without ever intending to have her executed, and it was only the Wyatt Rebellion (especially the involvement of the Duke of Suffolk) and the increasing influence of Simon Renard that eventually made her reluctantly sign the death warrant. Jane must have known when she took the throne that the price of failure was death.
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Offline Mari

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Re: Lady Jane Grey
« Reply #78 on: April 02, 2009, 01:00:55 AM »
Didn't her Father-in-Law push the idea and pressure her into it? I remember reading somewhere they kept saying it was her duty....and of course I am sure they guaranteed her once She was crowned no one would rally behind a Catholic Princess! It was a gamble for the People surrounding her and I am not sure how pliable she was? How much is known about her actual ambition...?

Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: Lady Jane Grey
« Reply #79 on: April 02, 2009, 05:49:18 PM »
Yes, Northumberland was behind the idea to make Jane queen, and initially she was highly reluctant, saying 'the crown is not my right and pleaseth me not; the Lady Mary is the rightful heir' or words to that effect. But once she accepted the fact that she was queen, she had no qualms about asserting her authority - when Mary's rebellion broke out, Northumberland wanted Suffolk sent to confront the rebels, but Jane insisted that he go himself. She also (if I remember right) ordered that the gates to the Tower be locked every night at 10pm and that the keys be given to her personally, and she told her husband that she wouldn't make him king. I think her initial reluctance gave way to a sort of martyred acceptance, and a belief that it was 'God's will', that she be queen.
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Offline mcdnab

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Re: Lady Jane Grey
« Reply #80 on: April 02, 2009, 06:04:46 PM »

Under a strict interpretation of the law both Mary and Elizabeth were technically illiegitimate - both on the grounds that their parents marriage was invalid.
Mary due to the English view that the papal dispensation of her parents marriage was illegal and Ellizabeth on the ground that her parents marriage was declared invalid shortly before the murder of her motherl.
However in law their legitimacy was irrelevant as their claims relied on the third Henrician Act of Succession not on the simple fact that they were the King's daughters.

I don't quite know whether I understand what you mean to say. Northumberland deliberately married his son to Jane precisely because of her claim to the throne - of course. Part of the scheme was to thus put his son on the throne as co-ruler.

So you assume Northumberland would have wanted Elizabeth as queen and that Jane was only his second best option simply because he knew Elizabeth wouldn't be "available" so to speak?

I don't actually think he ignored Elizabeth  because she would not have endorsed his scheme but rather because only by excluding both Mary and Elizabeth could he give his coup some sort of legality, arguing that Jane was the rightful successor because both of Henry's daughters had been pronounced illegitimate. But I'd have to check the evidence again.


both mary's and elizabeth's legitimacy was debatable. an unscrupulous man like northumberland could willingly eliminate mary and keep elizabeth in line - mary was illegitimate because her mother's marriage was not valid (due to her marriage to arthur tudor) and therefor elizabeth was legitimate because anne boleyn married a single man (his marriage was not valid). i'm sure that would have been more believable than the stretch that was to put jane on the throne (although it might not have worked anyway). however elizabeth already showed herself quite immune at such tricks with thomas seymour (even if record shows that she did like thomas seymour - he probably stood a better chance of manipulating her than northumberland) and was probably already quite prudent as a person. also she had no parents to influence her one way or the other (jane was constantly being beaten by hers - i believe i read that's how they got her to marry guildford dudley)... also she was a little older - at that age three years matter in maturity.



Offline ladyjanegreyref

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Re: Lady Jane Grey
« Reply #81 on: April 04, 2009, 06:53:16 AM »
Leanda de Lisle, author of 'The Sisters Who Would Be Queen: The Tragedy of Mary, Katherine and Lady Jane Grey' will be answering any questions you might have at my blog 'Lady Jane Grey Reference Guide Blog.'

http://ladyjanegreyref.livejournal.com/25617.html

Thanks.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2009, 06:55:13 AM by ladyjanegreyref »

Offline Yelena Aleksandrovna

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Re: Lady Jane Grey
« Reply #82 on: May 04, 2009, 07:55:24 PM »
Jane Gray's death



Lady Jane Gray


Offline Silja

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Re: Lady Jane Grey
« Reply #83 on: May 04, 2010, 02:47:07 PM »
Maybe I'm jumping the gun a little, but looks like it'll be another pro-Jane/anti-Mary book. I'd take issue with the statement from the little blurb - I woudn't call Jane 'one of the least studied figures of English history'. Plenty has been written about her (although most has been rubbish).  Also, I'd be interested to read his argument that Jane had 'strong legal grounds' for her claim to the throne - Edward VI's will could not overturn an act of parliament (in this case the 1544 Act of Succession) and in any case, as a minor, any will he made would have no validity in law. I know Northumberland wanted to change the law so Edward would achieve his majority at 15 (or 16?) but I'm not sure if this ever actually happened.


Ives exonerates Northumberland from the traditional view that it was his idea.

I have now read his study, and while I think it is a very good book, which raises interesting questions, I disagree with most of his theses.
Ives argues it was Edward’s idea to pass over his sisters and leave the crown to Jane. I agree that originally it was indeed Edward’s plan to disinherit Mary and Elizabeth because he wanted an all male succession and considered his half sisters illegitimate. This is strongly suggested by his original “deuice for the succession”. As stated here the crown was to go to the first male offspring born to any of the females from the Brandon line, that is to either Frances, her daughters  or Margaret Clifford. This is very much in keeping with Edward’s protestant mindset. He was certainly never the manipulated victim as which he has traditionally been presented.

But from here I disagree with Ives. To me all the evidence points to Northumberland having then persuaded Edward into leaving the crown directly to Jane since the original device would have been too impractical and absurd.   Ives, on the other hand, thinks Northumberland simply wanted to be loyal to his king and fulfill his wishes. Like Derek Wilson in The Uncrowned Kings of England, Ives considers the multiple marriages that took place in May 1553   "routine aristocratic alliances".  I find this and  the general total whitewash of the duke not at all convincing.

As to the legal grounds for Jane’s claim, according to Ives the statute from 1544 reinstating Mary and Elizabeth into the line of succession meant “setting aside the inheritance rights of legitimate heirs in favour of a bastard, so Edward by his device simply returned to common law.
Technically this may be so but the Act of Succession was the result of parliament having granted Henry VIII the right to name his successor. So Ives obviously denies the validity of such a right.

Has anyone read the book yet? Any comments?
« Last Edit: May 04, 2010, 02:55:01 PM by Silja »

Offline ilyala

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Re: Lady Jane Grey
« Reply #84 on: May 10, 2010, 06:03:41 AM »
well if henry could decide his heirs, why couldn't edward? after all they were both kings...
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Offline Silja

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Re: Lady Jane Grey
« Reply #85 on: May 10, 2010, 07:22:55 AM »
well if henry could decide his heirs, why couldn't edward? after all they were both kings...

If this was the case then Jane Grey was the rightful queen of England.

Personally, I don't think Edward had the right to change the statute of 1544 because at 15 he was still a minor.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2010, 07:26:56 AM by Silja »

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Re: Lady Jane Grey
« Reply #86 on: July 17, 2010, 06:36:23 PM »

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Re: Lady Jane Grey
« Reply #87 on: July 18, 2010, 03:04:24 PM »
A King could not be contrary to a former king's will, unless the person he indicated to be his sucessor was dead. In that case, Jane was only heir presumptive. Mary was the rightful heir, and Elizabeth was the next.

Offline RHB

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Re: Lady Jane Grey
« Reply #88 on: July 28, 2010, 10:24:29 PM »
I've read about her mother Frances Brandon! That woman... needed help! Doesn't just take the movie Lady Jane to figure that out! At least Frances hopefully knew better not to beat on her daughter... since as queen Jane could have her head if she wanted to!
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Offline Silja

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Re: Lady Jane Grey
« Reply #89 on: July 29, 2010, 04:09:49 PM »
I've read about her mother Frances Brandon! That woman... needed help! Doesn't just take the movie Lady Jane to figure that out!

Leanda de Lisle and also Eric Ives draw a more balanced picture of her. In fact we know very little about her to be able to really judge her. She may not have been much worse than most aristocractic mothers.