Anna of Cleves

Well, I am sure they knew about what happened to Anne Boleyn in Cleves. But perhaps it could be said that the impact was rather less on Anne of Cleves  than if Anne of Cleves had been growing up at the English court.

Yes, I guess this much is true!!

Cleves was hardly a backwater - not an important court, but in the most prosperous and civilised region in Europe - the Low Countries. It is now in Germany close to the dutch border. The Duke of Cleves had ports on the Rhine from which ships went directly to London. I'll guess the fate of Anne Boleyn was among the top topics of conversation at the court of Cleves in 1536!

Sorry, should have made it clearer: I meant backwater in the sense of distance from England and centers of the Empire.  Obviously it had political significance, though perhaps not as much as it would always have liked.  But that still does not mean sheltered Anna would have heard more than a passing remark about Anne Boleyn.  It probably scandalized her mother into silence.

Sorry, should have made it clearer: I meant backwater in the sense of distance from England and centers of the Empire.  Obviously it had political significance, though perhaps not as much as it would always have liked.  But that still does not mean sheltered Anna would have heard more than a passing remark about Anne Boleyn.  It probably scandalized her mother into silence.

I suppose it's possible that Anne's Mom didn't tell her about Anne Boleyn, but she would have had other sources of information - she was over twenty in 1536 (she could have read about it in "Hello!" like Prince Lieven! ). It does sound though as if Anne was tied to her mother's apron strings.  :-/

Anne's siblings made quite impressive marriages. Her sister Sibylla had been married to the Elector of Saxony (the most important Protestant prince) since 1526. Her brother married firstly Jeanne d'Albret, niece of the French King and heiress to the throne of Navarre. Then he married a daughter of the Emperor. He was called William the Rich (he was loaded).

I suppose it's possible that Anne's Mom didn't tell her about Anne Boleyn, but she would have had other sources of information - she was over twenty in 1536 (she could have read about it in "Hello!" like Prince Lieven! ). It does sound though as if Anne was tied to her mother's apron strings.  :-/

Anne's siblings made quite impressive marriages. Her sister Sibylla had been married to the Elector of Saxony (the most important Protestant prince) since 1526. Her brother married firstly Jeanne d'Albret, niece of the French King and heiress to the throne of Navarre. Then he married a daughter of the Emperor. He was called William the Rich (he was loaded).

Given descriptions of Anna's upbringing, I don't get the impression that she was allowed to talk to a lot of people outside of her immediate family.  But I could be wrong.  And since her mother seems like the head mistress, I also get the impression that everything was filtered through her.  Mommy dearest didn't like outsiders...  

That Anna's brother made an impressive marriage doesn't surprise me, he was going to basically inherit Cleves.  As for her sisters, is there any surviving descriptions of how they were raised and if they were as unprepared as Anna was?

There is another thread in this forum about Anne of Cleves sister, I believe, it's just a few pages down. Perhaps Anne of Cleves was rather sheltered, certainly she was no Anne Boleyn. Cleves had some importance or Henry woudn't have bothered to even look in the direction of Cleves for a bride, certainly. But Anne was not his type of woman, and it is hard to say why he would have thought so. Anne of Cleves has always fascinated me, as survivors who achieve something, although perhaps live less interesting lives do. Typically thought of as that foreign Princess Henry VIII married who he got rid of right away because she was ugly, and unlike her beautiful portait, Anne was much more.

There is another thread in this forum about Anne of Cleves sister, I believe, it's just a few pages down. Perhaps Anne of Cleves was rather sheltered, certainly she was no Anne Boleyn. Cleves had some importance or Henry woudn't have bothered to even look in the direction of Cleves for a bride, certainly. But Anne was not his type of woman, and it is hard to say why he would have thought so. Anne of Cleves has always fascinated me, as survivors who achieve something, although perhaps live less interesting lives do. Typically thought of as that foreign Princess Henry VIII married who he got rid of right away because she was ugly, and unlike her beautiful portait, Anne was much more.

Cleves was supposed to be a Lutheran haven.  Unfortunately Anna proved rather Catholic in view and practice.  If I am not mistaken, she even converted to Catholicism while in England.  Politically, Cleves was almost worthless.  All the alliance did was annoy the Emperor.  Even had their been a Henrician-Clevian dynasty in England, Cleves would still have been a small island in the midst of the larger Imperial sea.  

Cleves was supposed to be a Lutheran haven.  Unfortunately Anna proved rather Catholic in view and practice.  If I am not mistaken, she even converted to Catholicism while in England.  Politically, Cleves was almost worthless.  All the alliance did was annoy the Emperor.  Even had their been a Henrician-Clevian dynasty in England, Cleves would still have been a small island in the midst of the larger Imperial sea.  

Anne's brother was trying at this juncture to play a conciliating role between the reformers and the catholics (and between the Hapsburgs and the French) hence his marriage to Jeanne d'Albret and Anne's marriage to Henry. He was trying to use this role to increase the profile of his duchy. He wanted to gain control of the Duchy of Gelderland which was disputed with the Emperor but which he ruled from 1539-1543.

So I wouldn't say they were Lutherans, more that they were undecided (like most people in the 1540s). In the event the failure of his policy of being the big mediator (Anne divorced from Henry, he himself divorced from Jeanne) drove him back to the Emperor, whose niece he later married. If his policy had worked, Cleves had the chance of being a relatively important player - as it turned out the Duchy slipped back into obscurity.
When William's line died out, the crisis over the succession (1609) was a major destabilising influence in the run up to the Thirty Years War.

There's something that's been bugging me about Anna's religious nature.  As Bell pointed out, her generation was in a tug of war over religion with most people wavering here and there, back and forth between Catholicism and the Reformed religions.  Anna came to this country as a Reformed Queen to be and many Reformers in the Henrician court would have been excited about finally having a truly "Protestant" mistress.  Why, then, did Anna make an offical conversion to Catholicism when any religious waffling on her part could have been overlooked?  Was it only a matter of personal faith?  Or, was she preparing (despite the inevitable anger of Henry) for another marriage?  Was it simply politics?  The influence of the conservative court factions who saw her as a viable pawn to get to Henry?  Her good relationship with her stepdaughter Mary?  Alternatively, could her conversion to Catholicism be another of her moves to please her "good brother" Henry and thereby be an overlooked indication of Henry's own religious views (and one the rising Reformed factions would have been unhappy to realize)?  

I tried to find that Anne of Cleves sister thread yesterday,, but coudn't because the forum was so slow. I will try again today, as I am sure it is there. Anyway, I would wonder as well why Anne would convert to Catholism, it is interesting. Of course, it is correct to state that if she hadn't really made a desicion regarding religion, then that would have been excused, as so many people had changeable or dubious religious orientation then. But instead despite her orgins, she became Catholic. Well, Henry may have been a protestant in name in later years, but basically he was a catholic as regards what he believed and the way he worshiped, the only difference being he denied the authority of the pope. Henry was never that Protestant, amd someone from Anne of Cleves background would actually have seemed to have a chance of being more Protestant. Anyway, I believe her reasons for converting where either personal, or she was influenced by the conservative factions at court as you state, and her step daughter, Mary. She didn't have that much political importance after Henry divorced her, so why would she do this for reasons like that, or for reason of another marriage? Tnanks for raising this question.

I think personally that Anne changed her religion because she wanted to
I do find your bit about preparing for another marriage interesting though Tsarina Liz. Who do you think she had in mind?

Imperial Angel, Sybilla of Cleves doesnot have her own topic on the Tudor thread but she has been mentioned here somewhere.

I did find Tsarina Liz's post intriguing, and I would wonder if some of those other possibilities for Anne's conversion to Catholism were at all true, although I doubt she could have or would have considered getting married again. She had everything she could want in England, so why marry elsewhere, and marrying in England would have entailed marriage below her rank. In addition, there were some Protestants that would have been happy to marry her, if she was Protestant, because she came from a place well noted for that. So I don't see it likely that she would have married in England or outside England to a foreign, Catholic Prince. Henry would have frowned on remarriage in his lifetime, and after, why would she leave everything she had in England? As well, she was getting older.

I've been thinking about this all morning.  What I, in my mind, conclude is that the most likely reason was personal faith influenced by Mary.  I still, however, have some lingering questions in my mind because the conversion seems out of place, unnecessary.  Which makes me then lean more towards Anna trying to appease Henry.  So basically, she was trying to please the Royal Family (father and daughter) and that she had some Catholic inclination before she came to England which was only fostered by the Tudors.  

But there's still the marriage idea, which I have yet to let go of.  I do not think she would have married outside of England.  Anna did not have the connections or the smarts to negotiate something like that on her own, especially because it would have required quite a bit of intriguing to do it right under Henry's nose.  And I do think she genuinely appreciated her situation in England and would not have risked Henry's wrath.  But what if the marriage were Henry's or some high ranking Council member's idea?  Cleves was Reformed, yes, but that did not matter.  What mattered was that, although small, it was still a potential buffer against the Empire (an annoying grain of sand in the Imperial eye) and given England's lack of continental influence it would have been foolish to throw even the smallest bit of land away.  So Anna is back on the market, she still has pull in Cleves and now she's a rich English lady with connections to the royal family.  She's now more than ever a good match, so why not give her to a deserving peer?  A close personal friend of Henry's?  Henry still has control over Anna as her guardian and benefactor and therefore still maintains good relations with Cleves, and gains the debt of a friend (Henry would be giving him a very wealthy, influential woman).  Or, the marriage could have been proposed by a member of a Catholic court faction thereby cementing their influence.  Anna and all she stands for (Cleves, Henry's favor, English wealth) becomes Catholic and marries a Catholic noble in a reactionary attempt to repel the influence of the Reformists at court.    

A little out there, no?

I've been thinking about this all morning.  What I, in my mind, conclude is that the most likely reason was personal faith influenced by Mary.  I still, however, have some lingering questions in my mind because the conversion seems out of place, unnecessary.  Which makes me then lean more towards Anna trying to appease Henry.  So basically, she was trying to please the Royal Family (father and daughter) and that she had some Catholic inclination before she came to England which was only fostered by the Tudors.  

But there's still the marriage idea, which I have yet to let go of.  I do not think she would have married outside of England.  Anna did not have the connections or the smarts to negotiate something like that on her own, especially because it would have required quite a bit of intriguing to do it right under Henry's nose.  And I do think she genuinely appreciated her situation in England and would not have risked Henry's wrath.  But what if the marriage were Henry's or some high ranking Council member's idea?  Cleves was Reformed, yes, but that did not matter.  What mattered was that, although small, it was still a potential buffer against the Empire (an annoying grain of sand in the Imperial eye) and given England's lack of continental influence it would have been foolish to throw even the smallest bit of land away.  So Anna is back on the market, she still has pull in Cleves and now she's a rich English lady with connections to the royal family.  She's now more than ever a good match, so why not give her to a deserving peer?  A close personal friend of Henry's?  Henry still has control over Anna as her guardian and benefactor and therefore still maintains good relations with Cleves, and gains the debt of a friend (Henry would be giving him a very wealthy, influential woman).  Or, the marriage could have been proposed by a member of a Catholic court faction thereby cementing their influence.  Anna and all she stands for (Cleves, Henry's favor, English wealth) becomes Catholic and marries a Catholic noble in a reactionary attempt to repel the influence of the Reformists at court.    

A little out there, no?

This is getting very speculative:

Do we know when exactly Anne made her conversion? I have these thoughts on the matter:

1) Anne was never a Lutheran in the first place. Her sister was (Sibylla was a friend of Luther!), but her brother wasn't. Cleves wasn't a Lutheran country, but neither was it a Catholic one: the Duke liked to see himself as a mediator. Anne did not have an academic education - she didn't understand the finer points of theology, which was another reason why she irritated Henry.

2) When Anne became Queen of England, I assume she recognised her husband as Head of the Church of England, and conformed to the Henry's religious views (i.e. Catholic without the Pope). I can't imagine she changed her position on this while Henry was alive. It was treason to deny that Henry was Head of the Church.

3) On Edward's accession it is very possible that Anne was not in a mood to accept the new changes introduced by Somerset. We know that she suffered (relative) financial hardship during Edward's reign. As she had never been a Lutheran, and was not interested in theology it would have been hard to accept the new religion. On the other hand I don't see her as being intolerant to Protestantism, given her family connections.

4) On Mary's accession it is certain that she went along with Mary's line, as did everyone else who didn't want to be burned (including Elizabeth, and Cranmer, briefly!). As Anne wasn't interested in religion it wouldn't have been very hard for her to do this - she had been Catholic all along!

5) Anne died of cancer in 1557. Would she have gone along with the reestablishmment of Protestantism in 1559? It may be that she had tied her banner to closely to Mary, and may have decided to go back to her brother's court, but since she hadn't done this under Edward, why should she do this under Elizabeth? In England she was a rich woman - in Cleves a nobody with "return to sender" stamped on her forehead.
My guess is she would have stayed on, and recognised Elizabeth as head of the Church of England. She would have carried on with her basically Catholic beliefs though.

So I'm suggesting that she never converted to catholicism, because she already was one! If you can show me that she made an open declaration of her Roman Catholicism (by recognising Papal Supremacy) while Henry was still alive, I'll tear up this theory!

I doubt she would ever have gotten married again, at least without Henry's permission. Perhaps she would have married after his death, but but by then she was a bit older. She could even have been called soiled goods by the standards of the day. Sure, the king's widow could and did remarry, but would the King's cast off? Not likely, unless she did so after Henry's death, and when she did, someone in authority gave her permission to do so. And yes, so often people forget that before Edward's reign,  the religion was basically either somewhere inbetween, or it was Catholic without the supremacy of the pope. That's easy to forget, and I appreciated what Bell the cat pointed out.  I suppose because she came from a country that was somewhere inbetween, it is easier to speak of conversion, but a personal beliefs also must be taken into account.

"Soiled goods" or not, she could have married again. I am sure she would have attracted someone....she was fairly "loaded". And look at Catherine Parr after the death of Henry (PS "loaded" meaning financially well off, rather than drunk )