Author Topic: Just A Serious Question  (Read 36932 times)

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AlexP

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Just A Serious Question
« on: August 03, 2005, 10:38:17 PM »
This topic is fine....

But what about the firestorm that followed....

What about Lenin, Stalin, Dzherinsky, Beria, Sverdlov, Trotsky, my God, the 75 millions that perished during that time....is there any indictment big enough for them?  And why have they not been intellectually indicted herewith?

The question begs to be asked....and to be answered.

Where is their "mock trial" on this forum?

And if there is a mock trial, could we please conduct it under prevailing Russian rules of law?

Why is there a mock trial of the Emperor under American law?  He would not have been of the jurisdiction of American law, not even of the Hague Convention.

So while it may be a laudable intellectual exercise, would it not be a more laudable intellectual excercise to conduct it under the applicable laws of the Russian Civil and Criminal Code?  And which Russian Civil and Criminal Code?  The Imperial Code and Rescripts of 1917?  The Constitution of the ex-USSR and its Criminal Code?  The current Russian Civil and Criminal Code?

I would very much like to hear the thoughts of all of those who participated in this mock trial on these questions.

First, on the question of appropriate jurisdiction, intellectually or not.

Second, on the matter of which applicable national criminal code.

Third, on the matter considering the legal principle that heads of state may not be indicated or sued, a principle that is applied, currently, in the United States and in Great Britain.  In Imperial Russia, the monarch could not be object of an indictment.


If the monarch were a criminal to such a degree, either three things would have happened, and perhaps all of them :

1.  he would have been overthrown;
2.  he would have forfitted his life in the coup;
3.  if he did not forfit his life, he would exiled to a remote Siberian monastery.


Comments please.  Thanks.


Finelly

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Re: Just A Serious Question
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2005, 02:12:54 AM »
It's obvious that you are neither familiar with American jurisprudence, Canadian jurisprudence, or international law.  In addition, I believe you may be misconstruing an intellectual exercise as an actual mock trial.

Perhaps you had better leave this matter to us lawyers.

AlexP

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Re: Just A Serious Question
« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2005, 04:27:31 AM »
Quote
It's obvious that you are neither familiar with American jurisprudence, Canadian jurisprudence, or international law.  In addition, I believe you may be misconstruing an intellectual exercise as an actual mock trial.

Perhaps you had better leave this matter to us lawyers.


Actually, you have not answered my question:

Should not this Board consider the evil dealing of all the bomb-throwing, Trotskite anarchists, Lenin, Stalin, Beria, Dherzhinsky and company and have an "intellectual exercise" with them?

When I think of lawyers, or at least of certain lawyers, I think of Moliere's satire of them, ma chere.

Have you read it?


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Re: Just A Serious Question
« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2005, 05:28:49 AM »
Quote

Should not this Board consider the evil dealing of all the bomb-throwing, Trotskite anarchists, Lenin, Stalin, Beria, Dherzhinsky and company and have an "intellectual exercise" with them?


This intellectual exercise was initiated because of the centennial anniversary of the January Uprising of 1905.

This theme was the only suggestion that came to pass and acted upon by those interested enough to come together to effect this process. Such an exercise provided an opportunity for us to use our combined legal skills and knowledge of Russian history in a unique manner.  

If you are keen to introduce a new exercise then perhaps the "judge" would care to entertain another "case". All you have to do is ask. ;)



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Re: Just A Serious Question
« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2005, 09:14:32 AM »
The main reason Alex that we are using modern jurisprudence is two fold. First, you are quite right that Imperial Law would render the whole point moot as the Emperor was exempt. Second, and far more importantly, no one here has remotely the knowledge of Imperial Jurisprudence to use it today.

This is an intellectual exercise, that basically asks "What result would be obtained if Nicholas were tried using todays laws and ideas". Certainly, ANY historical Russian figure can be similarly judged should anyone wish to participate.

AlexP

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Re: Just A Serious Question
« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2005, 09:48:24 AM »
Dear Belochka,
Dear Forum Administrator,

Thank you very much for your kind answers.

I just was wondering "why" and each of your kind answers provided me with the reasoning I was seeking.

As for Imperial Jurisprudence, I could open a topic on this Board, I would venture to say that there would be some really serious answers from at least 10 Forum members.

But it might be a boring topic for many, but given the question of succesion right, a discussion begininng with "la loi salique" might be helpful.

Finelly

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Re: Just A Serious Question
« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2005, 11:28:24 AM »
But of course, AlexP.  I love Moliere and his satire of attorneys is a classic.  

Unlike some people, I never take myself very seriously.  No need to.  My life speaks for itself.  :)

AlexP

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Re: Just A Serious Question
« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2005, 06:57:15 PM »
Dear ForumAdmin,

Yes, I actually think that we could discuss Russian Imperial Law here.

Perhaps you might be kind enough to open a topic on it.  From reading the postings, here are the persons that I think would be helpful:

1.  Belochka -- Belochka, what do you think, would you be willing to contribute to forum on Russian Imperial law?

2.  Hikaru -- for sure, what do you think, I am sure that you could hel us with Russian Imperial Law?

3.  David Prithcard -- for sure, I am sure he could be of assistance on this subject.

4.  Mike, in Israel -- he seems to have a good grasp.

5.  Myself

6.  You

So, all of you above, would you be willing to help us getting a topic going on Russian Imperial Law.

A good place to start might be with the "krepostnaya prava".

I look forward to your thoughts.


Finelly

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Re: Just A Serious Question
« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2005, 11:10:47 PM »
Do what you wish, but I suggest that an actual trial of NA using IMperial Law would be ridiculously complicated, given the regional differentialities of Imperial legal procedure, theory, and reality.

Offline Belochka

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Re: Just A Serious Question
« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2005, 12:35:47 AM »
Hi Alex,

Since you appear so keen to initiate something new; may I suggest that you initiate a new thread in this section (FA to advise on the merits of this suggestion?  :)) which could be titled Russian Imperial Laws (excluding the Laws of Succession - which are discussed elsewhere on this forum).

It may be prudent to mention that very few would have access to specific primary documents (or copies)detailing the voluminous Imperial Ukazi, Prikazi and Manifesti that were enforced over the centuries.

Are the laws under consideration going to focus on military and/or administrative matters?

How each new law impacted on life and/or property may broaden the discussion and lead away from strict legalistic argument?  

To start proceedings perhaps it is may be more practical to restrict the scope of the discussion to the reign of  Nikolai II and/or Alexander III?  From the very little I understand in this area, not all Ukazi from previous reigns were formally published.

Perhaps if you initiate your thoughts we may be able to progress slowly? An explanation of krepostnaya prava would be a good start for those unfamiliar with these particular laws. What purpose did they serve, when were they enforced, by whom? etc. etc.

Just a few thoughts for your contemplation.  :)

BTW this was a interesting suggestion and if this discussion is initiated then I am confident there may be quite a few posters who may be interested in contributing.



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AlexP

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Re: Just A Serious Question
« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2005, 12:41:03 AM »
Quote
Hi Alex,

Since you appear so keen to initiate something new; may I suggest that you initiate a new thread in this section (FA to advise on the merits of this suggestion?  :)) which could be titled Russian Imperial Laws (excluding the Laws of Succession - which are discussed elsewhere on this forum).

It may be prudent to mention that very few would have access to specific primary documents (or copies)detailing the voluminous Imperial Ukazi, Prikazi and Manifesti that were enforced over the centuries.

Are the laws under consideration going to focus on military and/or administrative matters?

How each new law impacted on life and/or property may broaden the discussion and lead away from strict legalistic argument?  

To start proceedings perhaps it is may be more practical to restrict the scope of the discussion to the reign of  Nikolai II and/or Alexander III?  From the very little I understand in this area, not all Ukazi from previous reigns were formally published.

Perhaps if you initiate your thoughts we may be able to progress slowly? An explanation of krepostnaya prava would be a good start for those unfamiliar with these particular laws. What purpose did they serve, when were they enforced, by whom? etc. etc.

Just a few thoughts for your contemplation.  :)

BTW this was a interesting suggestion and if this discussion is initiated then I am confident there may be quite a few posters who may be interested in contributing.




Thank you for your kind words.  When I originally raised the suggestion, I was roundly criticized.  See the previous posts.

Yes, I will reflect on your suggestions.

A good place to start might be with "krepostnaya prava".  We could have an original more restrictive posting on this subject, see what kind of response we get and than branch.

First, define "kreposntnaya prava" in simple English so that all could  understand.

Then, taking your suggestion broaden it away from a strict, regimented legal interpretation to a more general interpretation of how it so affected Imperial Russia in an every-day way.

As well, yes, the Laws of Succession have been covered elsewhere, you are right.

My suggestions.

Again, Belochka, thank you very much.

Offline Belochka

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Re: Just A Serious Question
« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2005, 12:55:44 AM »
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Do what you wish, but I suggest that an actual trial of NA using IMperial Law would be ridiculously complicated.


There were no Imperial Laws to cover this contingency. Nikolai was immune; but he could be protected by laws that were enforced and deemed necessary for his benefit.  


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AlexP

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Re: Just A Serious Question
« Reply #12 on: August 06, 2005, 01:35:14 AM »
Quote

There were no Imperial Laws to cover this contingency. Nikolai was immune; but he could be protected by laws that were enforced and deemed necessary for his benefit.  


Belochka,

Agromnoe vam cpacibo.

Pa ckolko dzec ya stradaiouc.

All of the best.  Let me know what you think of my suggestion in the previos posting.

Greetings from Shanghai,

A.A.

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Re: Just A Serious Question
« Reply #13 on: August 06, 2005, 03:18:11 AM »
Blagodaryu vas (you're welcome)  :D

"First, define "kreposntnaya prava" in simple English so that all could  understand."

- an excellent beginning!  :)




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AlexP

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Re: Just A Serious Question
« Reply #14 on: August 06, 2005, 03:48:29 AM »
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Blagodaryu vas (you're welcome)  :D

"First, define "kreposntnaya prava" in simple English so that all could  understand."

- an excellent beginning!  :)





I am not sure that I could provide a sufficiently good English translation for all to understand.  Maybe we could work on this collectively? (excuse me for that word in a Romanov forum).

Regards from Shanghai,

A.A.