Author Topic: 101 Reasons AA was not FS.  (Read 26684 times)

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Offline AGRBear

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Re: 101 Reasons AA was not FS.
« Reply #30 on: August 04, 2005, 03:58:51 PM »
p. 305 ANASTASIA, THE RIDDLE OF ANNA ANDERSON by Peter Kurth:

>>"Do you mean there are no photographic exhibits that might permit us to identify the plaintiff with Franziska Schanzkowska?"  Werkmeister asked finally, shaking his head.  But there were.  Doris Wigender brought two pictures out of her bag now.  One depicted herself in 1920, wearing, she said, the famous blue suit she had given to Franziska in the summer of 1922, when Anastasia was missing fro the home of Baron von Kleist.  The ssecond picture showed Anastasia later on in the Tiergarten.  "You are going to see the same suit in this photograph," said Doris triumphantly, hnding the photographs to the judge.

Wekmeister looed at the pictures in silence.  Then he looked back at Doris and said with a frown, "But something has been erased on this picture of you."

Yes, said Doris, that was true.  In thhe original photograph a man had been standing at her should:  "I had his face removed because at the time certain wicked people wer accusing me of having loose morals."<<

p. 306

The conversation then covers the dress down to it's buttons.

The judges made a decision to have experts to check the two photographs.

While the experts checked the photographs over on p. 307,  the witness Bruno Grandsitzki was called and talked about his meeting with Franziska at Danzig in July of 1920....

Still looking for the page where it tells us what experts thought about  Doris'  two photographs....

Ahh, here it is p. 308:

>>.. October 1958, the police experts a Hamburg-Altona delievered their repot on Doris Wingender's pictures.  The clothing in the two potographs, the police informed, was not only not identical, but on one of the suits  "the buttons and the belt have been drawn in after the fact."

Source they used was #79 Police report of Oct 1, 1958. Hamburg.

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« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
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Offline Penny_Wilson

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Re: 101 Reasons AA was not FS.
« Reply #31 on: August 04, 2005, 05:07:38 PM »
Quote

We have a family who was trying to get out of claiming a troublesome sister, for her own good as well as theirs....


No, no, no and NO!  We don't have this at all!  This is nothing but your personal conjecture!  PLEASE don't start presenting it as proven fact -- this will "mislead" students reading this thread as much as anything you have named.

No Schanzkowsky, past or present, has EVER said that they were trying to "get out of claiming a troublesome sister."  This is a fact.
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Offline Annie

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Re: 101 Reasons AA was not FS.
« Reply #32 on: August 04, 2005, 05:23:27 PM »
Quote

No, no, no and NO!  We don't have this at all!  This is nothing but your personal conjecture!  PLEASE don't start presenting it as proven fact -- this will "mislead" students reading this thread as much as anything you have named.

No Schanzkowsky, past or present, has EVER said that they were trying to "get out of claiming a troublesome sister."  This is a fact.


Of course they're not going to SAY it! There is no proof of that because naturally they would not keep a record of it. We don't really know, it seems very likely to me, it makes perfect sense. As I have stated before, they had very valid reasons to avoid claiming her, it would only have been more pain and trouble for her and all of them. She didn't want to be claimed! Even you say they do not like to talk about the AA story. Well, why? If she was really no connection to them why would they care? It's because the whole episode is so embarrassing and hurtful to them, it would seem.

While we're investigating and speculating all over the place around here, we can't ruel out that the possibility exists, and is much more reasonable than an intestine switch, or even AA's alleged 2,800 mile cart journey.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Annie »

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Re: 101 Reasons AA was not FS.
« Reply #33 on: August 04, 2005, 05:43:40 PM »
Annie, I am going to ask you once again to put any posts that do not have substantiation, i.e. a source/cite, on another thread.

THIS thread is about evidence, actual evidence, and is confined only to that.  Please don't disrupt what is a very good thread so far.

Offline lexi4

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Re: 101 Reasons AA was not FS.
« Reply #34 on: August 04, 2005, 08:03:02 PM »
From Robert Massie "The Romanovs The Final Chapter" page 180

Here is the second meeting of the Schanz. family with AA.
"...in 1938, the claimant had a final confrontation with the Schanzkowski family. A decree from the Nazi regime in Berlin summoned her to a room where four Schanz., two brothers and two sisters, were waiting. She walked back and forth while teh Schanz. started at her and spoke in low voices. Finally, one brother announced, 'No this lady looks too different.' The meeting seemed at an end when suddenly Gertrude Schan hammered fer fists on the table and shouted 'You are my sister. You are my sister. I know it! You must recognize me!' The policeman stared at Mrs Tschaikovsky, and calmly, she stared back. 'What am I supposed to say?' she asked. The two brothers and the other sister were embarrassed and tried to quiet Gertrude, who shouted louder, 'Admit it! Admit it!' A few minutes later, everyone went home."

More. This from Peter Kurth www.peterkurth.com

Elsewhere, we read that Anna Anderson knew nothing about the Romanov family that couldn’t be found in newspapers, magazines and books—thus obliging Franziska Schanzkowska to make a huge, ongoing study of popular literature in two or three languages she didn’t know:  between 1916 and 1920, while Franziska supposedly lay "bedridden at the Wingenders’", no intimate account of the tsar’s family had been published in Berlin. Even the famous “Sokolov report,” detailing the murder of the Russian imperial family at Ekaterinburg, never appeared in a German edition before 1936, when it was used—as it was always meant to be used—to incite anti-Communism and, by extension, anti-Semitism (So begann der Bolschewismus! was the German title of Sokolov’s book).
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by lexi4 »
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Offline RealAnastasia

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Re: 101 Reasons AA was not FS.
« Reply #35 on: August 06, 2005, 04:32:39 PM »
(Same rules than the other similar threads: "101 Reasons AA was FS", "101 Reasons AA was GD Anastasia"- No discussions here, nor arguments. Only facts...And of course, GIVE THE SOURCE of every points, if you can)

1- The only photography portraying FS clearly was retouched (Peter Kurth, Dominique Auclčres, Jimmy Blair Lovell. This was cofirmed by experts in one of the AA trials in Germany)

2-Doris Wingender, the lady who recognized AA as FS, had always a little notebook with her, where she had written down all she remembered about Franziska. She never spoke about her without reading from this notebook, as if she didn't know very well the matter (Harriet Rathlef- Peter Kurth)

3- AA was different hands than FS. AA had slender, beatifully kept hands; FS had short, rough hands. (Peter Kurth; Jimmy Blair Lovell, Harriet Rathlef)

4- AA had different feets than FS. AA had ugly feet, with huge bunions and hallux valgus deformity. FS had beatiful feets. Any deformities in them. AA had different shoe number than FS. It's not only that (for some woman wore small sized shoes to fake perfect feets) AA was big feets. FS little feets (Same sources than above)

5- If we read Felix Schanzkovsky statement, his sister spoke "good German" and "a little Polish" . AA spoke a bad, broken German and if she could speak only "a little Polish", this would have been useles to her to understand Russian (Same sources than above)

6- FS suffered an accident in the grenade factory where she worked, but she didn't have any scar after it. Only her nerves broke severely. AA was plenty of scars, especially in the head. (Same sources than above)

To be continued!  ;)

RealAnastasia.

Offline RealAnastasia

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Re: 101 Reasons AA was not FS.
« Reply #36 on: August 06, 2005, 07:43:07 PM »
7-AA was very tiny, finelly- boned woman of barely 5 feet 2 inches in height. Franziska was "sturdy", "big-boned", coarse and grubby  (Remember tha  the weight may change and a fat woman would become a thin one. But bones doesn't change. There is many people very thin but big-boned (Peter Kurth-Harriet Von Rathlef)

8-FS hair was "dark, almost black"- AA's one was light chestnut (or dark blonde) with a red sheen (It couldn't be that she "painted her hair", for anyone saw her doing so in Dalldorf, nor in the Stillachaus. You know that if you doesn't tan your hair for some time, the rots would appear , darker, in the top of the head) Besides, hair could get darker with age, but not lighter. (Same source than above)

9- AA could play the piano- FS was not able to play any instrument.

10-FS was remembered, by a teacher, as "more limited than intelligent" AA was certainly very intelligent. She always could get almost all that she wanted. (Peter Kurth)

11-FS was SIX TIMES of her life in psychiatric hospitals IN BERLIN . This was BEFORE 1920...However, when AA was summoned to Dalldorf in 1920, after trying to kill herself drowning in the Landwehr Canal, and was named "Miss Unknown" , and her photos were shown in all psychiatric and sanatoriums in Berlin and Germany, NOBODY identified her as FS. (Peter Kurth-Dominique Auclčres-Jimmy Blair Lovell)

12-AA appeared in Berlín in February 1920-FS was reported disappeared by the Wingenders in March of the same year (Decaux, Peter Kurth, Dominique Auclčres. Harriet von Rathlef)

13- After the death of her "fiancé", FS became "promiscuous" , as Doris Wingender stated- AA seemed indiferent to sex or love relationships with men (Same source than above)

14-In the 1958-1961 AA trial, judges shown a whole set of photos with many persons in it, asking Doris Wingender if she could identify FS in them. Doris "recognized FS in all of them...excent in the ONLY one where Franziska would appear" (Dominique Auclčres-Peter Kurth- Jimmy Blair Lovell)

15- In the 1958-1961 trials in Germany, Doris Wingender watched the only photo where FS was present, and pointed that she was wearing the same blue suit she had given to FS in the 1922 summer. But the judge Werkmeister looked the photo in silence and said: "But something has been erased on this picture of you". Sometime later , the experts found out that the buttons in the belt has been "added" later, drawing them over it. (Auclčres-Kurth-Lovell)

16- A witness, Bruno Grandsitzki, meet Franziska at Danzig in July 1920, at the time when AA was already in Dalldorf. (Peter Kurth-Dominique Auclčres)

RealAnastasia.

More to come soon!


Offline RealAnastasia

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Re: 101 Reasons AA was not FS.
« Reply #37 on: August 06, 2005, 09:24:01 PM »
17- It was said that Ernest of Hesse payed the Detective Knopf, clearly to relate FS story to AA. (Peter Kurth-Blair Lovell-Auclčres-von Rathlef)

18-The people who claimed her to be FS, lied about too many points of FS story. If it was true,What was the use to lie? (Retouching photos-addind things in a photo drawing them over it.)

19-Doris Wingender was payed by the Scherl Press right to recognize AA as FS. She would have fifteen hundred marks AFTER she recgnize her . Why was the need to pay anyone if AA was indeed FS? Doris Wingender admited, in a conversation with Dr. Wilhelm Völler, Von Rathlef's attorney, over a dinner in the Regina Palast, that she had a contract with the "Nachtausgabe", a German popular paper. (von Rathelf; Auclčres; Peter Kurth)

RealAnastasia

More to come!


Offline Kransnoeselo

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Re: 101 Reasons AA was not FS.
« Reply #38 on: August 06, 2005, 09:25:21 PM »
17.  According to her family, Franziska had never been pregnant, while  it was determined by a German physician that AA had indeed given birth to a child.

18.  Franziska did not know English or Russian-two languages which Anna spoke during the first part of the 1920's. AA spoke Russian like a "native" and in a manner which would have been perfectly acceptable to the Imperial circles.  (Franziska primary language was German.  She spoke "some" Polish. Polish is not similar to Russian- they use two completely different alphabets- Russian uses Cyrillic but Polish uses the same alphabet as English, French and Spanish.)

19.  Franziska was taller than the Windgender sisters-but AA was shorter than both of them.

20.  AA had remarkable blue eyes-  even those who denounced her-Pierre Gillard, Olga Alexandrovna, etc commented on her eyes unique shade of blue.  Not one of the relatives or aquaintances of Franziska could recall the color of her eyes.

Offline RealAnastasia

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Re: 101 Reasons AA was not FS.
« Reply #39 on: August 07, 2005, 02:39:34 PM »
23- It seems that Martin Knopf, the detective who discovered Franziska's story, said that he would tell his participation in the fraud to anyone who would paid him 5.OOO $ (von Rathlef; Jimmy Blair Lovell)

24-AA was very short; FS was very tall. More tall than her own siblings. (Peter Kurth; Von Rathlef)

25-When Doris Wingender was founding lying in her deposition to the judges, she suddenly felt sick, became very pale, and started to stutter: " I have the flu!". (Peter Kurth; Dominique Auclčres)

More to come!

RealAnastasia.

Offline RealAnastasia

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Re: 101 Reasons AA was not FS.
« Reply #40 on: August 07, 2005, 03:13:26 PM »
26- The Second trial in Germany, concluded that the judges couldn't said if AA was AN or not, but that she wasn't FS for sure (Peter Kurth, Dominique Auclčres; James Blair Lovell)

27- Whe she was under anesthesia, or in delire, AA never spoke about her "Schanzkovsky" past, nor called out any of her siblings or speak about her work in a grenade factory (Personal observation)

RealAnastasia.
More to come!

Offline etonexile

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Re: 101 Reasons AA was not FS.
« Reply #41 on: August 07, 2005, 03:26:36 PM »
And the DNA of AA just happened to be a match for that of known S family members....and you can completely ignore this coincidence?

Offline Ssyentz

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Re: 101 Reasons AA was not FS.
« Reply #42 on: August 07, 2005, 10:05:48 PM »
One can be an "S" without being "FS."

Offline RealAnastasia

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Re: 101 Reasons AA was not FS.
« Reply #43 on: August 07, 2005, 10:44:30 PM »
Yeah. But this is not a thread to discuss the reasons; only to quote them. Of course she may be "S" Without being "FS". That's certain.

RealAnastasia.

Offline Ssyentz

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Re: 101 Reasons AA was not FS.
« Reply #44 on: August 07, 2005, 11:07:51 PM »
Exactly!