Author Topic: Protocol and Etiquette in the Court of the Romanovs  (Read 70068 times)

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Offline Tania+

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Re: Protocol and Etiquette in the Court of the Romanovs
« Reply #30 on: February 19, 2006, 07:35:25 PM »
Dear FA,

You are more than correct.Thank you for your response. I also understood one did not directly speak to their highnesses in the early russian courts, but that one spoke to an intermediate who conveyed the message to the Tsar, then back to the person. I understand that this was also done when writing a letter to the Tsar. Do you know anything about this FA ?

David,
Thank you for your wonderful posts. They offer much to us, and allow us understand the very involved conducts of Russian court life, and everyday etiquette. How very wonderful of you to share both french and english with our posters. We are very lucky to have you on board and to share with us the infinite knowledge you offer so graciously. Thank you! Always looking forward to your posts. ;) Keep up your great postings !

Tatiana+
TatianaA


Offline carl fraley

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Re: Protocol and Etiquette in the Court of the Romanovs
« Reply #31 on: September 17, 2006, 05:18:41 PM »
this question kind of fits into this topic but I'll ask anyhow.  As far as precedence goes, Olga Nicholaevna (<-- ??) would take precedence of Olga Alexandrovna?? 

Or even more difficult say that both Olga's and Marie Alexandrovna, Duchess of Edinburgh, Coburg etc.. were all together??

Who would take precedence over each other??  I mean all 3 are daughters of Tsar's???  Anyone know??
« Last Edit: May 13, 2009, 03:12:08 PM by Alixz »

Offline Vecchiolarry

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Re: Protocol and Etiquette in the Court of the Romanovs
« Reply #32 on: September 17, 2006, 09:30:24 PM »
Hi,

I would guess that Olga Nichailovna, the daughter of Nicholas II would have premier spot as she is the daughter of the reigning Czar.
Next, Olga Alexandrovna because she is the sister of the reigning Czar and daughter of the previous Czar (Alexander III).
Lastly, Maria Alexandrovna since she is the daughter of the Czar previous to the last (Alexander II).

As I stated this is a guess and I could stand corrected.

Larry
« Last Edit: September 17, 2006, 09:32:19 PM by Vecchiolarry »

Offline carl fraley

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Re: Protocol and Etiquette in the Court of the Romanovs
« Reply #33 on: September 17, 2006, 10:37:17 PM »
It would have been very interesting to actually have seen it in real life and with out a doubt know the correct answer.    I also have a 2nd part to ask.  I found myself wondering the other night,

HM & HIH Olga Constantinova (Queen Olga of the Hellenes) and her Daughter in Law HI & RH Helen Vladimirovna, Princess Nicholas of Greece were both Grand Daughters of Different Tsars.  Ok both would have received a Dowry paid by The Tsar and an annual income from the appanages.  Since both were granddaughter would their allowances have been the same?  I know that Queen Olga lost her fortune in Russia after the revolution and then existed off of a small pension given to her by the Greek state after the Greek Overthrow, but did princess Nicholas have her funds deposited elsewhere?   

I can't remember which book but isn't she quoted as telling Prince Nicholas to go back home (the first restoration) and get whatever stocks and bonds he/she had and see that they were deposited overseas?

ok 2 more questions...   

1.) WOuldn't Helen have technically outranked her husband?

2.) If both Olga and helen were in Russia, I know Olga would have outranked her as being a reigning sovereign, but since helen was closer to the Reigning brance would olga still have outranked her even after HM King George's Death ( In russia) ??
« Last Edit: May 13, 2009, 03:13:32 PM by Alixz »

Offline Vecchiolarry

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Re: Protocol and Etiquette in the Court of the Romanovs
« Reply #34 on: September 18, 2006, 08:40:25 AM »
Hi again,

I don't know the answer to your first question about allowances.  But, I would imagine that each marriage and each grand duchess would have a separate and different income.  Olga was marrying a king but Helen only a prince.

As a queen and then queen mother, Olga would have outranked Helen always in Russia.
Nicholas would have outranked Helen also as he was a son of a monarch and Helen was only daughter of a grand duke and granddaughter of an emperor.

I think this is correct information but if anyone can be more definitve, I will bow to their expertise.

Larry

Offline ashdean

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Re: Protocol and Etiquette in the Court of the Romanovs
« Reply #35 on: October 07, 2006, 12:04:19 PM »
A Queen,consort or Dowager always outranks any other woman.Olga of greece would therefore in Russia outrank every Romanov woman except the 2 Empresses.This is proved by the famous petition protesting against the exile to Persia of Grand Duke Dimitri to Persia in 1917.Olga's name comes first before Grand Duchess Vladimirs who was the most senior Grand duchess of the signatories. As for dowry. I would imagine All the Grand Duchesses received an identical sum from the Imperial appanages.If the ladies received further "top-ups"from their parents personal fortunes, that is another matter...Grand Duke Vladimir was a particulary rich Grand Duke....After the revolution the incomes for both Queen olga & her daughter in law ceased but Helen eventually recieved a quarter share of the proceeds of her mothers fabled jewel collection..This was a drop in the bucket to her share of the immense Vladimir fortune of pre revolutionary days but still riches compared to most of the other exiled Romanov's

Offline RomanovFan

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Re: Protocol and Etiquette in the Court of the Romanovs
« Reply #36 on: October 16, 2006, 01:26:21 PM »
I think the order of precedence as far as titles goes something like this:

HIM-- His/Her Imperial Majesty
HM---His/Her Majesty
HI&RH---His/Her Imperial and Royal Highness (Like Grand Duchess Ellen, Princess Nicholas of Greece)
HIH--His/Her Imperial Highness
HRH---His/Her Royal Highness
HGDH---His/Her Grand Ducal Highness
HH---His/Her Highness
HSH---His/Her Serene Highness
HIllH---His/Her Illustrious Highness

I might've missed a couple but anyway...
~LESLIE~

ROMANOV FAN SINCE 1997

Offline Taren

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Re: Protocol and Etiquette in the Court of the Romanovs
« Reply #37 on: December 15, 2006, 01:43:14 PM »
I've searched online and can't find what I'm looking for. Basically, I was wondering, when you curtsey, which foot goes behind the other? Also, I've seen two kinds: the slight bend down and the deep, to the floor, curtsey. Under what circumstances would one do each kind?

Offline CountessKate

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Re: Protocol and Etiquette in the Court of the Romanovs
« Reply #38 on: December 18, 2006, 04:07:49 AM »
My understanding is that the right foot goes behind the left foot.  The slight bend, with head erect, is for daytime use, both casual and formal (for example, females of Prince Charles' clique would shake hands and bob a curtsey when meeting him informally, but it is equally seen by those being presented to Queen Elizabeth at garden parties).  The deep curtsey, much lower and inclining the head, is for the very formal occasions.  Debutantes curtseyed this way on their presentations to the King and Queen, and British royal brides do a deep curtsey to the Queen as they leave the altar.  It is no longer part of British court etiquette and there is absolutely no requirement for it (that is what my parents have been advised when they've met the Queen, which they've done both in daytime lineups and on an evening occasion at Buckingham Palace).  Margaret Thatcher always curtseyed to the Queen and made rather a performance of it, Cherie Blair does not curtsey.  Both are correct.

Offline Teddy

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Re: Protocol and Etiquette in the Court of the Romanovs
« Reply #39 on: February 27, 2007, 08:26:20 AM »
Imagine,

A Kingdom with Salic-laws.

A King dies and his wife the Queen and his daughters are still a life.
The brother of the late-King will be the first in line of succesion and haves a wife (a new Queen) and childeren.

Does the first Queen rank above the second Queen, altough the second Queen is Queen-consort of a ruling King.
And what about the daughters?


Offline CHRISinUSA

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Re: Protocol and Etiquette in the Court of the Romanovs
« Reply #40 on: December 01, 2007, 10:47:40 AM »
Teddy,

In a western kingdom, one's precedence is derived from their position (firstly) to the reigning monarch, and then (secondly) to a previous monarch.

So in your example, the second Queen would rank above the first (as the consort of the reigning monarch).  Their children follow, (as the children of the reigning monarch).  Once that line (the direct and immediate line of the reigning monarch) is accounted for, you back up one "monarch" and proceed down his descendents in order of seniority (with seniority determined by which law applies - salic, semi-salic, etc.).

The exception would be that first widowed Queen.  She after all retains the title of Queen and style of Majesty, which is ABOVE any princesses of the royal blood.  So the order would be (1) Reigning Queen Consort, (2) Dowager Queen, (3) Children of the reigning monarch, (4) children of the preceeding monarch, etc.

Imperial Russia generally followed suit; however, it had an exception in that the Dowager Empress actually preceeded the reigning consort, an anomoly apparently derived more from a religious perspective that the Dowager, as MOTHER of the reigning monarch, was higher than his wife. 

Offline DanlScott

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Re: Protocol and Etiquette in the Court of the Romanovs
« Reply #41 on: April 18, 2008, 11:24:43 PM »
I believe the protocol of a Russian dowager empress taking precedence over the empress consort is not a religious observance, but rather due to Paul I changing the law.  He did not like his son's wife, and couldn't stand the thought of her taking precedence over his wife after he died. 

As far as ettiquite goes, I think it would all dpend on who the imperial family was meeting.  They would expect members of the aristocracy to bow/curtsy, and to wait to be addressed by the imperial family before speaking, and then to use proper titles.  Peasants were another matter (and yes, they did on occassion come in contact with their lesser subjects).  To the moujik, they weren't imperial majeesty, but batushka and matushka.

As far as the assertion that the imperial family didn't need approbation and would have been insulted by it, that what they expected was obedience instead, that is not entirely correct.  There are accounts of the family at the opera, and upon conclusion of the imperial anthem the crowd cheering (and judging by the descriptiions of jewels and uniforms, the audience was aristocratic).  When the imperial family sailed up the Neva to the Winter Palace the day war was declared, the throngs lining the quay cheered and applauded.  Within the Nicholas Hall, after the Tsar made his pledge not to make peace as long as the enemy was on Russian soil, the crowd applauded and cheered for ten minutes (this was inside the palace, filled with courtiers and aristocrats - the very people who should know protocol and etiquette).  Indeed, during some of the tercentenary events, some people weren't struck by displays of approbation but a lack of it.  Nicholas was convnced his people loved him, and would not have discouraged any display of it.

Offline Nadya_Arapov

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Re: Protocol and Etiquette in the Court of the Romanovs
« Reply #42 on: April 19, 2008, 01:03:51 AM »
I believe the protocol of a Russian dowager empress taking precedence over the empress consort is not a religious observance, but rather due to Paul I changing the law.  He did not like his son's wife, and couldn't stand the thought of her taking precedence over his wife after he died. 

You are right that it was instituted for the first Empress Maria Feodorovna, Paul I's consort. However, it was my understanding that this had less to do with Pauline laws and more to do with Alexander I's guilt regarding his role in his father's murder. You are correct that it had absolutely nothing to do with religion.

Offline Dr.Bill

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Re: Protocol and Etiquette in the Court of the Romanovs
« Reply #43 on: January 21, 2009, 01:23:21 PM »
I am writing the book for a musical about Rasputin. The story centers mostly around those closest to Nikolas and Alexandra. It will not pretend to be historically down to the last doorknob, but I would like to know the following: 1) what forms of address were used by the aristocracy to the Tsar and Tsarina: 2) how did servants address the Imperial couple? 3) how did the Imperial Couple address servants?

Were there gradations such as your imperial majesty, your lordship, count, duke, etc?

Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: Protocol and Etiquette in the Court of the Romanovs
« Reply #44 on: January 21, 2009, 01:48:32 PM »
Have you read the other thread about the musical called "Rasputin"?
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