Author Topic: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme  (Read 90321 times)

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Offline CHRISinUSA

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Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
« Reply #15 on: August 15, 2005, 01:07:43 PM »
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It is the familly tree  ;):

http://www.madame-royale.de/en/picdat/tree.htm

There is a legend who said she was replaced by her sister, but it is the firt time I heard this story  :

http://www.madame-royale.de/en/index.htm


Thank you for the post of the family tree - my knowledge of the French monarchy is quite poor indeed.  Could someone enlighten me about the rather basic descend of Charles X?  Is it he from whom the late Henri, Count of Paris is descended?  Why was Henri not elevated to a ducal title, as it seems quite common among French royals?

Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
« Reply #16 on: August 15, 2005, 01:45:31 PM »
The late Comte of Paris was the claimant to the French throne. Charles X was the second last King of France. After her was deposed, the French made Louis Philippe, Duc d'Orleans 'King of the French'. Louis Philippe was descended from 'Monsieur', the younger brother of Louis XIV. Charles's X's male line died out in the 1880s, leaving the (now deposed) Orleans line of Louis Philippe the sole claimants to the throne. The Comte of Paris was the heir of Louis Philippe as his senior male line descendant. . .
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Offline umigon

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Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
« Reply #17 on: August 17, 2005, 05:40:46 AM »


In those times there were so many stories about substitutions (Louis XVII supposedly had survived and another child was put in his place (false), Marie Antoinette was safe in Austria when on October 1793 one of her maids was beheaded in her place (false) and then this story about Marie Thérèse, also false)

It was very common in those times inventing this silly little stories. I suppose it was, for them, some kind of 'Hello!' magazine of the time!
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Offline CHRISinUSA

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Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
« Reply #18 on: August 17, 2005, 02:12:56 PM »
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The late Comte of Paris was the claimant to the French throne. Charles X was the second last King of France. After her was deposed, the French made Louis Philippe, Duc d'Orleans 'King of the French'. Louis Philippe was descended from 'Monsieur', the younger brother of Louis XIV. Charles's X's male line died out in the 1880s, leaving the (now deposed) Orleans line of Louis Philippe the sole claimants to the throne. The Comte of Paris was the heir of Louis Philippe as his senior male line descendant. . .


Thanks so much  Prince.  A further question.  If Louis Philippe was Duke of Orleans prior to ascending the throne, then why wouldn't the ducal title have continued downward to the Comte of Paris as head of that line of the family?  Is there a Duke of Orleans today?

Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
« Reply #19 on: August 17, 2005, 02:32:35 PM »
Chris,

As far as I can see, the Orleanist claimants to the French throne mostly styled themselves as 'King of the French' when they succeeded to their father's claims. During their father's lifetime, they were usually styled Duc de Chatres, Duc de Guise or Comte de Paris. I suppose that the Duc d'Orleans title was inherited from Louis Philippe, and was only held by the man who claimed to be king, and if he was calling himself King he would not use the Orleans title. His children, though, would be styled d'Orleans - e.g. Princess Isabel d'Orleans, and they are known as the House of Orleans.

The late Henri, Comte de Paris (1908-1999) the second most recent claimant, always styled himself by this title, though I don't really know why he never called himself King.  His son Henri (born 1933) is the current claimant, now calling himself Comte de Paris and Duc de France.

So, in answer to your questions, there is no Duc d'Orleans today, though the Comte de Paris may consider it one of his titles.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Prince_Lieven »
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Offline Louis_Charles

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Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
« Reply #20 on: August 19, 2005, 02:57:07 PM »
Is anyone aware of a good biography of Marie-Therese? I have searched on and off for years with no luck finding one in English (my French, alas, is non-existent). Thanks in advance for the help.
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Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
« Reply #21 on: August 21, 2005, 08:48:27 AM »
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In French Aristocracry does a Comte rank higher than a Duc?   Could it be they no longer use the title Duc d' Orleans because Phillippe Egalitie was executed holding that title?


That's an interesting idea, Michael. I'm inclined to think that, as in England, a Duc is the highest title - then again, Louis XVI's brothers were title Comte de Provence and Comte d'Artois. surely if Duc was higher they would have been made Ducs? So perhaps you are right . . .
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
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Offline trentk80

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Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
« Reply #22 on: August 21, 2005, 09:50:18 PM »
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That's an interesting idea, Michael. I'm inclined to think that, as in England, a Duc is the highest title - then again, Louis XVI's brothers were title Comte de Provence and Comte d'Artois. surely if Duc was higher they would have been made Ducs? So perhaps you are right . . .


But as far as I know Louis XVI's brothers, the Comte de Provence and the Comte d'Artois, used these titles before the Revolution and Philippe Egalité's execution. On the other hand, I once read that Louis-Philippe was Duke of Orleans before becoming King of the French in 1830.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by trentk80 »
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Offline umigon

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Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
« Reply #23 on: August 22, 2005, 04:59:45 AM »
Yes, Louis-Philippe was Duke of Orleans before ascending to the throne.


The title of Duke I think must be higher than that of Count in every country!
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Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
« Reply #24 on: August 22, 2005, 05:05:32 AM »
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Yes, Louis-Philippe was Duke of Orleans before ascending to the throne.


The title of Duke I think must be higher than that of Count in every country!


Hmmm . . . <chews lip thoughtfully> where's grandduchessella? She probably knows the answer . . .
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Offline Lisa

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Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
« Reply #25 on: August 22, 2005, 05:56:26 AM »
In France:
Emperor, King, Prince of Royal blood, Prince, Duke, Marchis (spell? marquis in French),Comte (Count),  Vidame , Vicomte (Viscount), Baron , Chevalier (Khight), Écuyer (Squire)

Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
« Reply #26 on: August 22, 2005, 07:41:54 AM »
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In France:
Emperor, King, Prince of Royal blood, Prince, Duke, Marchis (spell? marquis in French),Comte (Count),  Vidame , Vicomte (Viscount), Baron , Chevalier (Khight), Écuyer (Squire)


Thank you sooooooooo much Lisa! BTW, marquis is marquess in English. Just a little question - what is a Vidame? And by Princes not of Royal Blood I assume you mean the likes of the Contis and the Condes?
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
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Offline Lisa

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Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
« Reply #27 on: August 22, 2005, 08:17:08 AM »
Yes, a prince of royal blood is a close member of the royal family(brother, son, uncle...). BTW, in France, when you are a prince, you are a member of the royal family...
I nerver hear avout vidame, but according to this site (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titre_de_noblesse ), it's an old title from the Middle Ages, and it's quite rare!

I found some inforamtions here, but not the translation of the page above..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titles_of_nobility
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:French_nobility
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Lisa »

Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
« Reply #28 on: August 22, 2005, 08:23:14 AM »
Thank you so much for that, Lisa. Very informative. How unusual that in the UK, a prince is always a HRH and always a member of the royal family, as opposed to in Germany where princes were HSH and of lower rank than dukes. What was the honorific of the Princes de Conti and Conde? What about Marie-Therese? Was she a HRH? And after her marriage was she still called Madam Royal or always Duchesse d'Angouleme?
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Offline Lisa

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Re: Princess Marie-Therese, Duchesse d'Angouleme
« Reply #29 on: August 22, 2005, 08:41:39 AM »
Prince of Condé has the title of First Prince of Royal blood (premier prince du sang) until 1709 and we called him "Monsieur Le Prince". The first Prince of Condé was Louis,Charles IV's 5th son (1489-1537). The Condé's first son was called Duc d'Engien...

Here is the list of the Condés, in French:
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maison_de_Cond%C3%A9