Author Topic: Charles I and family  (Read 47955 times)

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Offline umigon

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Re: Charles I and family
« Reply #90 on: September 18, 2005, 10:00:09 AM »
I know they played cards together and one day Mary Beatrice and Madame de Maintenon had an argument about Louise Marie (can't remember what was the matter of the dispute, though) and Louis, who was very influenced by Maintenon and never permitted a bad answer to her, said:

" Marie is right, Madame, she is the child's mother"


Maintenon shut up - HE was the King - but was recorded to be infuriated because someone had won her in a dispute!!


This also prooves the respect and affection that James and Mary Beatrice inspired to Louis!
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Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: Charles I and family
« Reply #91 on: September 18, 2005, 10:03:18 AM »
I can well imagine that Mary Beatrice was the kind of woman Louis liked . . . he liked Minette too, and she shared some characteristics with Mary Beatrice.

Apparently, James turned over a new leaf in exile and changed his lecherous ways . . . Where did they live in France? Did Louis give them an allowance?
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Offline bell_the_cat

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Re: Charles I and family
« Reply #92 on: September 18, 2005, 10:05:58 AM »
I'll bet that was a Liselotte story. She loved anything that showed the Maintenon in a bad light.

They lived at St Germain en Laye near Paris.

James became very boring in exile. It was said he only had to open his mouth for everyone to know the reason why he was there (i.e. not in England).
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by bell_the_cat »
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Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: Charles I and family
« Reply #93 on: September 18, 2005, 10:08:34 AM »
She loved anything that was in any way dramatic.  ;D ;D

Did Liselotte meet James and Mary Beatrice in their exile at all?
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
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Offline bell_the_cat

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Re: Charles I and family
« Reply #94 on: September 18, 2005, 10:10:56 AM »
Yes, she was good friends with Mary Beatrice - lot of Liselotte's letters are addressed to her. She was very sad when Mary Beatrice died (contrast to whooping with joy when Mme de Maintenon died!).
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Offline umigon

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Re: Charles I and family
« Reply #95 on: September 18, 2005, 10:13:53 AM »

Of course she met them, they all lived quite near ones from the others and Liselotte lived in Versailles, where James and Mary Beatrice spent much time and even had their own chambers there. Liselotte liked Mary Beatrice (they belonged to the same generation) and they were friends.

The story, well I can't remember where I read it, but I am sure it was not Liselotte's work, although it is very similar to the typical comments she made about Maintenon. And well, Liselotte had her reasons to dislike Maintenon, she was not a good woman... at least not for Louis's family...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by umigon »
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Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: Charles I and family
« Reply #96 on: September 18, 2005, 10:16:39 AM »
It was Mary Beatrice who wrote to Anne to tell her of James' death - doesn anyone know if Anne replied? Was there court mourning in England? BTW, presumably Louis continued to look after Mary Beatrice after James' death?
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
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Offline umigon

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Re: Charles I and family
« Reply #97 on: September 18, 2005, 10:21:22 AM »


Yes, he passed her a pension. Things turned a bit cooler between Louis and his Stuart relatives in 1714, when the Treaty of Utrecht was signed, because one of the conditions was that the Stuart pretender should be exiled from France. Although I can't remember very weell, what happened next, James went out of France and Louis and Mary Beatrice separated a bit. Mary Beatrice, however, was very sad when Louis died in 1715.


About Anne, I don't know if there was mourning when James II died. But James forbid mourning in his Saint Germain Court when Mary II died in 1694!
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Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: Charles I and family
« Reply #98 on: September 18, 2005, 10:26:53 AM »
He FORBID mourning! I had no idea!!

Gosh . . . When James was dying, he told the weeping Mary Beatrice 'Think of it Madam, I am going to be happy.' He also urged his son to be tolerant to other religions. He ruged Louise Marie to follow her mother's noble example.

He then told God he forgave his three great enemies - the Holy Roman Emperor, the Prince of Orange (William III) and Princess Anne of Denmark - his own daughter!

Louis was greatly moved by Mary Beatrice's tears, and Madam de Maintenon urged him to pity her. He did so, and when James died he declared his son King.
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
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"Men forget, but never forgive; women forgive, but never forget."

Offline trentk80

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Re: Charles I and family
« Reply #99 on: September 18, 2005, 10:28:28 AM »
Does anyone have pictures and information on Clementina Sobieska, the Old Pretender's wife?
Ladran los perros a la Luna, y ella con majestuoso desprecio prosigue el curso de su viaje.

Offline umigon

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Re: Charles I and family
« Reply #100 on: September 18, 2005, 10:30:01 AM »
Louis wished to control England and Scotland. He wanted to have a satelite monarch in the person of James III who, in case of becoming King of England, would owe to Louis his achievement. Louis also tried to do the same thing with his grandson Felipe when he became King of Spain in 1700. Both wishes were never satisfied!
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Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: Charles I and family
« Reply #101 on: September 18, 2005, 10:32:32 AM »
Yes, very true.

I just checked it out - William III was furious with Louis declaring the Old Pretender King, but he was not petty enough to deny mourning. He wore violet, but stipulated that mourning would not be for long. This annoyed Princess Anne of Denmark, since she had already assumed full mourning for her father and covered St James' palace in black . . .  guilt makes people do amazing things.  ::)
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Offline bell_the_cat

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Re: Charles I and family
« Reply #102 on: September 18, 2005, 10:37:00 AM »
 Maria Clementina Sobieska (1702-1735), granddaughter of the Polish king, John III Sobieski. They had two sons:

Charles Edward Louis Philip Casimir Stuart, (December 31, 1720- January 31, 1788), aka "Bonnie Prince Charlie"
Henry Benedict Stuart, (March 11, 1725-July 13, 1807)

The events surrounding her marriage were quite dramatic. the Emperor wouldn't allow her to travel through his territories so she had to be smuggled into Italy disguised as a servant.

Her marriage with the Pretender was not a happy one , and they separated after the birth of Henry Benedict, her second son.

She may have suffered from an eating disorder (anorexia).

She lived her final years in Rome. She died in 1735 aged 32/3 and is buried in St Peters. She was good friends with the Pope (I think Benedict XV). They went out driving together. Scandalmongers said they were having an affair!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by bell_the_cat »
Never put off until tomorrow what you can put off until the day after tomorrow. (Mark Twain)

Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: Charles I and family
« Reply #103 on: September 18, 2005, 10:50:59 AM »
Here is the letter that Mary Beatrice wrote to her stepdaughter Princess Anne of Denmark after James II's death:

I think myself indispensably obliged to defer no longer to acquainting you with a message which the best of men, as well as the best of fathers, has left with me for you. Some few days before his death, he bid me find means to let you know that he forgave you from the bottom of his heart, and prayed God to do so too, so that he gave you his last blessing, and prayed God to convert your heart, and confirm you in the resolution of repairing to his son the wrongs done to himself; to which I shall only add, that I join my prayers to his herein with all my heart, and that I shall make it my business to inspire to the young man who is left to my care, the sentiments of his father, for better no man can have.

After his death, James II remained unburied. His coffin lay in the grounds of the Church of English Benedictines in rue St Jacques, Paris. During the French Revoltution, a group of solderis opened the coffin to find James' body perfectly preserved. James' corpse was on display until 1813, when the Prince Regent heard of it and had it buried in St Germain en Laye.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2009, 06:02:13 PM by Prince_Lieven »
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Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: Charles I and family
« Reply #104 on: September 18, 2005, 11:04:40 AM »
Here's a painting that shows that the Old Pretender was a not unnattractive young man:

"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
-Sherlock Holmes

"Men forget, but never forgive; women forgive, but never forget."