Author Topic: Philippe Egalite and Orleans  (Read 9880 times)

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Offline Dmitry Russian

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Philippe Egalite and Orleans
« on: February 07, 2007, 06:21:54 AM »
I know sad history of Philippe Egalite. What mutation has occured in its brain that it became the revolutionary supporter and voted for death of king? Its son Louis-Philippe has been appointed by regent at small king Henry V who was the grandson of Charles X. But Louis-Philippe has preferred to declare renunciation of Charles X and to become so-called and constitutional " king of the Frenchmen ". Thus the son of Egalite became the usurper of the French throne. Why Orleans did not love senior Bourbons relatives? Perhaps, it is an inferiority complex and envy in relation to descendants of Sun King? Louis XIV witnessed death of own sons and grandsons, but nevertheless one more grandson of Louis XIV became the Spanish king, and after death of Louis XIV its small great-grandson became following French king. Besides descendants of Louis XIV still also have started to reign in Two Sicilies and duchy Parma. It seems, Orleans have received nothing in comparison with descendants Orleans. Perhaps, from here envy, hatred and an inferiority complex of a younger line in relation to descendants of Sun King?
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Offline Dmitry Russian

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Re: Philippe Egalite and Orleans
« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2007, 11:52:20 PM »
As it is a pity, that this theme does not interest anybody! I thought, that mutual relations Orleans and Bourbons are interesting to somebody.  :-[ ???
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Offline britt.25

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Re: Philippe Egalite and Orleans
« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2007, 05:30:42 AM »
...But yes, Indeed, the Orléans as well as the Bourbons descend directly from the sun king! This can be proved by studying the official genealogies. Did you not visit them? The Orléans for example descend in the direct line from Louis XIV by different illeg. children of the sun king as well as they descend from Louis brother, Philippe in the leg. line. You can follow every step and all the generations from the middle ages (Hugues Capet) , over Louis XIV until the today´s count of Paris!
« Last Edit: February 27, 2007, 05:32:28 AM by britt.25 »
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Offline Yseult

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Re: Philippe Egalite and Orleans
« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2007, 06:40:00 AM »
I don not think either the Orleans or the Bourbons are directly descended from the Sun King. Louis called himself the Sun King because he thought he was directly descended from Charlemagne, but he was not.

Well, the Sun King was a grand-son of Henri de Navarre. Henri was a member of the Bourbon branch through his father, Antoine. The Bourbon brach began with the marriage between Robert, count of Clermont, with Beatrice of Bourbon. And Robert was a younger son of Philippe III Le Hardi. The father of both Philippe III and Robert was Louis IX, grandson of Philippe II August by the first wife, Isabeau de Hainaut. If I´m not confused or wrong, Isabeau de Hainaut was a carolingienne, this mean, a descendant of Charlemagne.

Offline britt.25

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Re: Philippe Egalite and Orleans
« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2007, 08:20:47 AM »
If you follow genealogies like Genea Portugal (it´s a very good one for me, and serious) you can follow the steps from the Bourbons to Charlemagne, as you have described it.  I seem to remember that there are even different lines! Thanks for the detailled explanations of Louis XIV´s ansistors, the statement that the Bourbons do not descend from Charlemagne and even not from Louis XIV was quite confusing to me :o :o
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Offline James1941

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Re: Philippe Egalite and Orleans
« Reply #5 on: February 27, 2007, 11:54:51 AM »
When Charles X abdicated and his son Angouleme also abdicated, and left the tiny Henri as king, Louis Philippe, Duc d'Orleans was appointed Lieutenant General of the Realm. It was unlikely that the country was going to accept the Bourbons any longer. So Orleans faced a choice. I am sure his personal ambitions were at work here. He would have been an unworldly figure if they hadn't been, but he was also faced with a political decision----France with a king or France with no king. So he chose to accept the throne as King of the French. Which would you prefer Dimitry? A Bourbon-Orleans on the throne of a constitutional monarchy, or a republic? The elder line of the Bourbons was out of the running so there is no way they were going to continue, legitimate or not. And, there was a strong Bonapartist party waiting in the wings to snatch advantage from the confusion. L'Aiglon was still alive in Vienna at that point.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2007, 11:56:39 AM by James1941 »

Offline Dmitry Russian

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Re: Philippe Egalite and Orleans
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2007, 04:29:28 PM »
Thanks for detailed explanations concerning genealogy of the French kings. But I have my two opinions rather Philippe Egalite. I know, that king Louis XIV witnessed death of own sons and even grandsons. Then hearings about any poisoning were at the Versailles court yard. Itself Louis XIV trusted in a poisoning of the son and the successor. Its unique  survived grandson became the Spanish king, but it has renounced the rights to the French throne. The small great-grandson of old king became new French king in five years. At the Versailles court yard constant alarms for a life of the small great-grandson of the Sun-king were. Even the future Louis XV was ill with a smallpox, but it has soon recovered. Then Louis XV became the grandfather of the subsequent French kings and three brothers: Louis XVI, Louis XVIII and Charles X. Perhaps, in case of with массово the died sons and grandsons of the Sun-king and unique survived the Spanish king and its French nephew Philippe, Duce of Orlean, and its son hoped to become kings? But their hopes could not come true. Perhaps, they were very seriously are disappointed. Perhaps, the voice for death of king of Philippe Egalite was the culmination of hostility to the senior royal line and a symbol of not come true dreams and hopes of Orleans...
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Offline britt.25

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Re: Philippe Egalite and Orleans
« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2007, 06:19:45 AM »
Philippe Egalité and Louis Philippe, the "civil king", how he was called also descended from Louis XIV through illeg. lines. As far as I can remember he descends by two illeg. daughters of Louis XIV from the sun king. That´s interesting!!


массово ??? ??? ::) ??? ;D
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Offline Dmitry Russian

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Re: Philippe Egalite and Orleans
« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2007, 06:05:26 PM »
Excuse me, but illegal daughters of kings could not conclude dynastic marriages with foreign princes of blood in those days, but could converge together with local aristocrats. I heard, regent of France Phillip did not wish to marry the illegitimate daughter of Louis XIV and Marquise de Montespan, but king has forced the future regent to make it.
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Offline britt.25

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Re: Philippe Egalite and Orleans
« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2007, 02:09:08 AM »
May be your personal opinion, but especially the Orléans are in different cases connected with the daughters of Louis XIV by Montespan: As far as I know it, the sun king, who had seven daughters by the Marquise de Montespan and three by Louise de la Baume de la Blanc, married Francoise Marie to Philippe II. of Orléans, and Louise Francoise tp Louis III. of Condé. Louis Philippe does not only descend from the daughter Francoise Marie, but also from the sun king´s son Alexander, who had the son Jean- Marie etc etc. I think it was common to marry the illeg. to the official lines of the family. I have read that the sun king legitimized almost all of his children from his lovers, and gave them an official status and title. He also lived with those children together in his palaces. It´s obvious that Ludwig´s children by his mistresses had a much better health than the children of Louis by queen Maria Theresia. A possible reason for this might be the close familiar blood relationsship, because both had the same ancestry of the Spanish Hapsburg line: Maria Theresia was the daughter of the Spanish king Philippe IV, whereas the mother of Louis XIV was one of the sisters of the Spanish king. And not only that: The mother of Maria Theresia was a Bourbon, Isabella, the sister of Louis´ father.
So many children died in early age: The genealogy shows that of six children only the "Dauphin" survived childhood. So Louis had much more luck with his other children from his mistresses and took him in dynastic marriages.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2007, 02:11:00 AM by britt.25 »
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Offline José

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Re: Philippe Egalite and Orleans
« Reply #10 on: March 13, 2007, 11:20:59 AM »
May be your personal opinion, but especially the Orléans are in different cases connected with the daughters of Louis XIV by Montespan: As far as I know it, the sun king, who had seven daughters by the Marquise de Montespan and three by Louise de la Baume de la Blanc, married Francoise Marie to Philippe II. of Orléans, and Louise Francoise tp Louis III. of Condé. Louis Philippe does not only descend from the daughter Francoise Marie, but also from the sun king´s son Alexander, who had the son Jean- Marie etc etc. I think it was common to marry the illeg. to the official lines of the family. I have read that the sun king legitimized almost all of his children from his lovers, and gave them an official status and title. He also lived with those children together in his palaces. It´s obvious that Ludwig´s children by his mistresses had a much better health than the children of Louis by queen Maria Theresia. A possible reason for this might be the close familiar blood relationsship, because both had the same ancestry of the Spanish Hapsburg line: Maria Theresia was the daughter of the Spanish king Philippe IV, whereas the mother of Louis XIV was one of the sisters of the Spanish king. And not only that: The mother of Maria Theresia was a Bourbon, Isabella, the sister of Louis´ father.
So many children died in early age: The genealogy shows that of six children only the "Dauphin" survived childhood. So Louis had much more luck with his other children from his mistresses and took him in dynastic marriages.

As a matter of fact it was a form of humiliating his royal cousins.
Marrying his cousins to bastards (even his own ones  ::) ) was a form of downgrading their houses.

The Orléans were always a menace on Louis XIV's throne.
And the Condés, although much more calm in this period, caused severe trouble at the beginning of Louis' reign.

As they say "revenge is a plate to be served cold".
Louis , quite machiavellically, decided to stain his cousins lines with the stegm of illegitimacy by marrying them to his illegitimate daughters.
His sister-in-law, the proud Liselotte of Pfalz, the only one who had the nerf to face the king, was appalled when she discovered that her only son, Philippe, the Regent, was forced to marry Françoise-Marie.
She did all she could to stop such marriage, but Louis had traced his plan and nothing nor anyone would deterr him.


Offline CountessKate

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Re: Philippe Egalite and Orleans
« Reply #11 on: March 14, 2007, 01:23:57 PM »
Actually, Louis XIV planning the humiliation of his royal cousins by marrying them to his illigitimate children is only the opinion of his sister-in-law Madame, the Duchesse d'Orleans, and the Duc de Saint Simon.  They were quite hysterical on the subject, for different reasons.  Madame was German and they had a very negative attitude to promoting illigitimate marriages - they spoiled the purity of royal bloodlines - and Saint Simon seemed to be more averse on religious grounds to promoting the children of adultery (though bloodlines also mattered).

Louis XIV, who only had a single legitimate child, had to promote and strengthen his dynasty by important marriages of all his children.  He married the daughters of Monsieur to important European rulers but he could not marry his illegitimate children in the same way as only legitimate ones would do outside France (William III of Orange was offered one of Louis XIV's illegitimate daughters and coldly responded that the house of Orange was used to marrying only legitimate princesses.  The offer was not made to other potential foreign rulers).  Thus his illegitimate daughters were married to senior princes of the blood - prospectively kings of France if his line should fail.  He wasn't bothered by bloodlines - they were all his children and his subjects should be honoured by his selecting them as his sons-in-law.  The marriage of illigitimate children to senior nobility within France was a not uncommon practice from medieval times (the dukes of Burgundy made this a standard practice) and in the 16th and early 17th centuries, for example with Henri II and Henri IV.  It rather depended on the status of the mistress - one couldn't palm off the child of a serving maid to a prince of the blood or even a mid-ranking noble - but with a high-ranking mistress as a mother the Kings of France could add to their dynastic alliances very comfortably with illigitimate offspring.  However, pretty huge bribes had to be offerred for a bastard - the quarrel between Louis XIV and his brother Monsieur, which was considered to have materially contributed to Monsieur's final stroke, was about Louis XIV not coming across with the full value of what he had promised to Monsieur when his son married Louis XIV's illigitimate daughter.  The Orleans family benefited from the bastards however - this marriage and several others later down the line to other descendents of Louis XIV's illigitimate children made the Orleans family the richest princely house in France.



Offline AlexofLisbon

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Re: Philippe Egalite and Orleans
« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2010, 07:35:08 AM »
Dear All,

is any of you aware if the Orléans family's ADN has ever been tested? I'm particularly interested in Phillipe Égalité, his sister Louise Marie Thérèse Bathilde or Louis Phillipe I or his siblings's DNA.
If a profile of any of this persons is available this would be an important aid to the work I'm developing for sometime.
I know that the presumable blood of King Louis XVI has been tested and apparently it matches on the physical type of person we know he was but I would rather have the Orléans part of the family.
Many, many thanks,
Alexandre

Offline AlexofLisbon

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Hello Fellow Writers,

I hope there is someone amongst you who may be familiar with the case of the relationship between the Count of Folmont, Jacques-Marie Rouzet and the Duchess of Orléans Louise Marie Adélaïde de Bourbon-Penthiévre, the heiress of the colossal fortune of the Penthièvres and the mother of King Louis Philippe I.
I'm particularly interested in finding the possible descendents of Jacques-Marie Rouzet living today as I have come across information that point to the fact the he has had offspring by Marie Hébrard, 9 in total.
As you may know Jacques Marie Rouzet becomes the protector and romantic partner of the french princess, the Duchess-Widow of Orléans. There are some references to a possible marriage around 1795 when she was reliesed from arrest after the influence of his lover Jacques, a deputy in that time.
What interests me is to find where this references to a marriage find their grounds. Does anyone know if there is a marriage certificate found or other sources, even if indirect?
I have grounds to believe that a child is born from this relationship and this child has accompanied the mother and father to exile in Spain - first Sarrià, then Figueras and then Mahon of the Baleares Ils. In 1809 the later to become king Louis Philippe I has come to get her mother for his wedding in Palermo where she stayed for two years and she returned to Mahon after her relationship to her son has severely degraded. We can support Louis Philippe was not supportive and rather combative against this relationship as he has done quite a lot to hide related facts and wipe references to it. The journal that the Duchess of Bourbon and sister-in-law, Bathilde de Bourbon has written about the captivity and life in exile of Adélaïde's was thought missing after it has passed through Louis's hands but later found (all in one piece?) ; the article in "Biographie Universelle" of François Xavier de Feller, pags. 656/657, is completely missing any reference to the relationship. The odd fact is explained if you bare in mind the work was published in 1838 (Louis Philippe was already seating on the throne).
Does anyone have any information about this relationship other that we can find on the internet.
Most importantly is there any information about existing descendents from the male line of Jacques-Marie Rouzet and Marie Hebrard?
Many thanks,
Alexandre