Author Topic: Discussion-101 Reasons AA was GD Anastasia  (Read 23963 times)

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Offline AGRBear

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Discussion-101 Reasons AA was GD Anastasia
« on: August 18, 2005, 10:35:43 AM »
Since we're only suppose to list the 101 Reasons to AA was GD Anastasia on the other thread and not have a disscussion,  HERE is where you discuss these reasons and if you think  these reasons should or should not be placed on a permanent list.  

Sources should be with each post.

We can start with #1 which was from Penny.
Quote
...[in part]....

....I'll start....)

1.Princess Xenia of Russian recognized her.


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« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline RealAnastasia

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Re: Disscussion-101 Reasons AA was GD Anastasia
« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2005, 09:01:47 PM »
She recognized her, and even when AA was very rough to her, she keep her beliefs about AA's authenticity. Xenia Leeds tryed to convince the family about the fact that AA was indeed Anastasia, but the family refused to believe it. Peter Kurth said in his book "The Riddle of Anna Anderson", that Xenia Leeds was pushed by "the family" - this is the Romanovs- to reject AA. She didn't, but she couldn't help AA as she wanted to. She also promised her, she would bring her to see the Dowager Empress to Danemark, but she know that she couldn't do such a thing since the Empress herself said she didn't want to receive any claimant, for "her son and his family where alive". Xenia also had many troubles with Gleb Botkin. For her, Gleb was interferring with all possibilities AA had in order to be reconciliated with the Romanovs.AA started to fight with Xenia, and stated that her husband, William Leeds, hated her. She accused Xenia to befriend people who was against her. AA ended by leaving Oyster Bay, the Leeds estate in Golden Coast.

NOTE: Now; you know I'm an AA supporter, this thread is supposed to discuss the evidence and change it from possitive into negative. So, this is the thread for people who doesn't believe in AA. You must state the reasons for you are not convinced about the reasons for AA was AN. After it, those who are convinced of the opposite would start a discussion about the matter.

NOTE 2: Remember that Xenia's sister, Nina Chavchavadze didn't recognize AA as Anastasia. This is a point in your favor!  ;)

SOURCE: Peter Kurth; James Blair Lovell; Von Nida.

Offline etonexile

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Re: Disscussion-101 Reasons AA was GD Anastasia
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2005, 10:17:47 AM »
AA was not AN...and most likely was FS....because of impartial DNA evidence....oh...and the fact that she looked nothing like AN....Maybe if she'd stuck with her first choice of being the GD Tatiana....she might have had better luck....

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Disscussion-101 Reasons AA was GD AnastasiaFor
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2005, 12:02:39 PM »
Forgot to mention,  DNA test is excluded from this thread.  There are plenty of DNA threads where you can discuss the subject until the cows come home.  

You do not need to believe AA was GD Anastasia to particpate. Even though I do not think AA was GD Anastasia,  I may find something interesting to add as the thread continues or make comments based on facts I find which disagrees with a fact.  

There shall be no redicule directed at anyone who does believe AA was GD Anastasia.  There was a time when many of you thought she was or there was a possibility she was, so,  give the "newbies" [many of them young people] and the "loyalist" respect.

Meanwhile,  I believe the subject at this time is about Xenia reconizing AA as GD Anastasia.

Remember, this is a disucussion, also, remember SOURCES

Where do we find the fact that Xenia reconized AA as Anastasia?

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Rachael89

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Re: Disscussion-101 Reasons AA was GD Anastasia
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2005, 12:20:34 PM »
Quote
AA was not AN...and most likely was FS....because of impartial DNA evidence....oh...and the fact that she looked nothing like AN....Maybe if she'd stuck with her first choice of being the GD Tatiana....she might have had better luck....


Hi Etonexile

I know what you beleive and I respect that I just thought I should point out that Anna Anderson never claimed to be Tatiana people just assumed that she was Tatiana.

Best

Rachael

It's not fair!

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Disscussion-101 Reasons AA was GD Anastasia
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2005, 01:37:43 PM »
Rachel is right,  AA never claimed to be Tatiana.

This is  "false" information which has so often been repeated so many many times that  it's taken up a life of it's own and  many, now, believe this is true......

Quote
AA was not AN...and most likely was FS....because of impartial DNA evidence....oh...and the fact that she looked nothing like AN....Maybe if she'd stuck with her first choice of being the GD Tatiana....she might have had better luck....


I'll have to look for the source.  In fact,  I think I wrote about it on another thread.

I'll be back.

Quote
>>9:00 PM, 18 Feb 1920
     The person who is to be known as Anna Anderson jumped off the Bendler Bridge into the Landwehr Canal, in Berlin.  She was pulled out of the water by Police Serg. Hallman and taken to Elizabeth Hospial in Lutzowstrasse  

>>End of March 1920 AA was sent to Dalldorf Asylum

>>Doctors exaimination on 30 March 1920 recorded her weight at 110 pounds and her height at just under five feet two...

>>17 June 1920 AA was fingerprinted and photographed.  These photographs were sent from Berlin out to   Stuttgart, Brunswick, Hamurg, Munich, Dresden... (Weimar Republic).  Places in Berlin, which probably included FS asylum where she spent some time more than once, were checked throughly....  Family members of those who had lost a dau., wife... were brought to see AA...  This included the family of a Maria Wacowiak in Posen....

>>autumn of 1921 AA announced she as the GD Anastasia and talked about the jewels sewn in her clothes

>>Claire Peuthert was committed to Dalldorf at the end of 1921

>>6 March 1922 Claire Peuthert tells Capt. Nicholas von Schwabe about AA, whom she said looked like GD Tatiana.... was at Dalldorf

>> 7 March 1922 Capt. Scwabe phoned his friend Franz Jaenicke and they agreeed to go to Dalldorf on Wed. , 9th of March....  Claire P. showed up at Capt. Schwabe's apartment

>> 9 March 1922  The first known contact of Capt Scwabe at Dalldorf, Ward B.  With him was Jaenicke.

>> 9 March, Wed.,  1922 the Supreme Monarchist Council heard about AA and so the word quickly spread through the whole emigre colony in Berlin....  The SMC sent guards to Dalldorf, people spoke with the doctors at Dalldorf, and people were sent to speak to the police....

>> 10 March 1922 Capt Scwabe brought to AA in Dalldorf Zinaida Tolstoy and her daughter, and, also, there was a Capt. Andreievsky

>>12 March, Sat., 1922  Baroness Buxoeveden arrived at Dalldorf to see AA with Zinaida Tolstoy.  It was the Baroness who pulled AA out of bed and declared that AA was too short to be Tatiana...  The Baroness left with little to say accept that AA resembled the GD Tatiana then went off to declare AA was not GD Tatiana as it had been thought ....

>>____ March 1922 Later, AA declared she had never said she was Tatina, which was apparently true,  AA had said she was Anastasia and everyone realized the mistake Buxoevenden had made and Capt. Schwabe continued to help AA.   The mistake had been created by Claire P.

>> 27 July 1925:  "Shura did NOT meet AA until July 27, 1925.  She met with AA along with Ambassador Zahle, Pierre Gilliard.  So there was a full 5 almost 5 1/2 years after Feb 1920 that she met with Shura or Gilliard, " Michael wrote.

>>On May 9, 1927  AA was taken for a meeting with Felix Schanzkowska the brother of Francisca.

>>9 July 1938:  The second meeting took place in Hannover on July 9, 1938.  At this meeting were: Marie Juliana, Valerian, Felix & Gertrude,  AA,  Fallows, Frau Madsack & Gleb Botkin, at the Police Headquarters, this meeting took place through the orders of the Government, and the manipulation of the new head of the Russian Emigre Office in Berlin 

AGRBear


Evidently, it was Claire Peuthert  who gave the false information that AA was GD Tatiana


AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline RealAnastasia

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Re: Disscussion-101 Reasons AA was GD Anastasia
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2005, 07:23:08 PM »
Yes. The whole confussion comes directly from Clara Peuthert. The matter is settled in Peter Kurth's, Harriet Rathlef's and Dominique Auclères books. After the whole problem with Zinaide Tolstoy and Sophie Buxhoeveden, Mrs. Peuthert said she was sorry enough for the trouble she has caused without wanting it.

RealAnastasia.

P.S: Please, Etonexile. Stop your post about " She was not A...DNA said it...She was most likely Fransizka Schanzkovzka...DNA said it...What is the reason to discuss this if DNA said the last word...AA was not DNA...." and all the ... ...  ::) you put in all your post as all the arguments you has to show us. I don't quit this thread, nor others. I like them. But if you keep doing the ... ::)... ::)...DNA...I have lots of Brit irony...etc . I'll don't bother to even answer to you. I'm bored and tired .

Offline KayDee

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Re: Disscussion-101 Reasons AA was GD Anastasia
« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2005, 04:38:19 AM »
i am kaydee from india and this is my 1st post. after reading peter kurth's book, i am convinced that AA=AN which i know goes contrary to the DNA test. but there are many other reasons which support her claim. for example,when AA talks about what happened on the "last night", she comments "everything was so sudden.........they came and told us 2 get ready....we had to follw them"(peter kurth,pg 37).this was in the 1920's when there was no information from russia and if you read edvard radzinsky's "the life and death of nicholas II", many of the guards testimonies also say the same thing. also, when she "talks of the cold wave accompanying the passing of the ice from the Neva" it shows that she had the knowledge about an obscure imperial ceremony which would'nt be the case if she wasnt a part of that world. plus ofcourse, dr.otto reche testimony at hamburg,plus the dr.moritz furtmayr who compared AA&AN's ears and concluded that they were the same person. also,it has been found that the GD elizabeth(alix's sister)'S finger DNA does not match with the imperial family DNA derived from the ekaterinburg bones which makes it seem that DNA is not as foolproof as it is supposed to be.

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Disscussion-101 Reasons AA was GD Anastasia
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2005, 10:46:41 AM »
Welcome KayDee.

It is always good to hear a new voice.

I took your post over to the 101 Reasons AA was GD Anastasia thread:
Post #50
http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=anastasia;action=display;num=1123173471;start=50#50
---------------------------

I have incerted numbers in KayDee's quote to avoid confusion.

Quote
i am kaydee from india and this is my 1st post. after reading peter kurth's book, i am convinced that AA=AN which i know goes contrary to the DNA test. but there are many other reasons which support her claim. for example,

#74. when AA talks about what happened on the "last night", she comments "everything was so sudden.........they came and told us 2 get ready....we had to follw them"(peter kurth,pg 37).this was in the 1920's when there was no information from russia and if you read edvard radzinsky's "the life and death of nicholas II", many of the guards testimonies also say the same thing. also,

#75 when she "talks of the cold wave accompanying the passing of the ice from the Neva" it shows that she had the knowledge about an obscure imperial ceremony which would'nt be the case if she wasnt a part of that world. plus ofcourse,

#76 dr.otto reche testimony at hamburg,

#77 plus the dr.moritz furtmayr who compared AA&AN's ears and concluded that they were the same person.

#78 also,it has been found that the GD elizabeth(alix's sister)'S finger DNA does not match with the imperial family DNA derived from the ekaterinburg bones which makes it seem that DNA is not as foolproof as it is supposed to be.


I repeat:  I changed KayDee post alittle by adding the numbers.

Bears Remarks:
#76  Prof. Otto Reche is mentioned on pps 314, 316, 319, 324-327 in ANASTASIA, THE RIDDLE OF ANNA ANDERSON  by Peter Kurth.

Prof. Reche was appointed by the German Court to give his expert opinion.

So, who was the Prof. Reche?  He was, wrote Kurth on p. 314, "...the founder and former presdient of the German antopological Society, and expert in genetics and scientific criminaloy and experienced witness for the courts."  "When Dr. Reche's sixty-page report was submitted to the court in 1960 he had already spent more than a year at his task, collecting every available photograph of the Tsar's daughter, the Romanovs and he Hesses;  traveling to Underlegenhardt and gaining entrance...to Anastasia's barracks, where he photographed her under the exact angles and approximate lighting conditions of the earlier pictures... He had also busied himself with chardts, grids, blood tests, and a comparison of Anastasia's features with those of Franziska Schanzkowska and her family."

Wonder what ever happen to the blood test which Prof. Reche's held in his position. ???

And, I wonder if he collected more than one photo of FS from the Schanzkowska family. ???

Anyway, back to Prof Reche's conclusion which he testified in AA court trial:

Prof. Reche's testified:  
"1.  Mrs. Anderson is not the Polish factor-worder, Franziska Schanzkowska
2. Mrs. Anders is Grand Duchess Anastasia"

I'd like to add: Prof. Reche's wasn't someone from the 1920s but criminologist of the 1960s.


AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline CuriousOne

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Re: Disscussion-101 Reasons AA was GD Anastasia
« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2005, 12:38:31 PM »
My hubby's book shelf is filled with books which he used in his courses in the School of Criminology at UC [Berkeley] in the early 60s.  It was an age when everything new which dealt with criminology was being invented, being set into place and successfully used by the Berkeley Police. My husband had the best darn profs in that business and it carried him over into his work in the DA's office where he  convicted murderes. Nowadays with the help of computers and all the new softwares plus the linking of the network across the country everything has enhanced the police's, FBI's and  CIA's abilities in detecting, apprending and convicting the bad guys and gals. It is unfortunate that too many good old boys can't work computers.  Well, that's another subject.  Does anyone know if the Dr. Reche is still alive?  I'd love to track him down and see ALL the evidence he accumulated, which must have been a lot,  to write a sixty page report.  And,  like Bear,  I'm interested in that blood test sample he took of AA in 1960.  Must be part of the Court records and in someone's archives just sitting there and waiting to be found.   C1
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by CuriousOne »

Offline Inquiring_Mind

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Re: Disscussion-101 Reasons AA was GD Anastasia
« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2005, 01:48:05 PM »
I think this is a bio of the doctor in question..as you see it is in German. From my limited German it seems to fit. If so, he passed away late 60's.

http://www.uni-leipzig.de/~ethno/publikationen_geisenhainerrasse.htm
I chose the road less traveled and now...where the heck am I????

Offline CuriousOne

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Re: Disscussion-101 Reasons AA was GD Anastasia
« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2005, 01:51:09 PM »
Quote
I think this is a bio of the doctor in question..as you see it is in German. From my limited German it seems to fit. If so, he passed away late 60's.

http://www.uni-leipzig.de/~ethno/publikationen_geisenhainerrasse.htm


Thanks Inquiring_Mind.

This is the data:

>>Katja Geisenhainer


"Rasse ist Schicksal". Otto Reche (1879-1966) - ein Leben als Anthropologe und Völkerkundler


(Beiträge zur Leipziger Universitäts- und Wissenschaftsgeschichte, Band 1)


Diese Biographie von Otto Reche stellt einen Beitrag zur Wissenschaftsgeschichte speziell der Fächer Ethnologie und Anthropologie in der ersten Hälfte des 20. Jahrhunderts sowie zur Geschichte der Universität Leipzig und des Leipziger Instituts für Ethnologie dar. Reche studierte in Breslau, Jena und Berlin, erhielt 1906 am Hamburger Völkerkundemuseum seine erste Anstellung und zählte zu den Teilnehmern der Hamburger Südsee-Expedition. Nach seiner Tätigkeit als Leiter des Wiener Anthropologisch-Ethnographischen Instituts von 1924 bis 1927 übernahm er in Leipzig bis 1945 das völkerkundliche Institut und baute es in anthropologischer Richtung aus. Im Anschluß an seine Internierung lebte Reche bis zu seinem Tod wieder in der Nähe von Hamburg. Neben der Darstellung seines Lebens und seiner akademischen Karriere, der Herausbildung von Forschungsinteressen und -schwerpunkten, seiner Position innerhalb der wissenschaftlichen Gemeinschaft sowie seinem Engagement auch außerhalb der Universität, werden Reches Verstrickungen zur Zeit des Nationalsozialismus sowie seine Beziehungen zu unterschiedlichen wissenschaftlichen, außerwissenschaftlichen, parteipolitischen wie staatlichen Stellen ausführlich behandelt. <<

It is a bio and apparently he died in 1966.

C1
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by CuriousOne »

Offline Inquiring_Mind

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Re: Disscussion-101 Reasons AA was GD Anastasia
« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2005, 02:01:35 PM »
Katja Geisenhainer

" Race is a destiny ". Otto Reche (1879-1966) - a life as an anthropologist and Volkerkundler

(Contributions to the Leipzig university and science history, volume 1)

This biography of Otto Reche shows a contribution to the science history especially of the fields Ethnology and Anthropology in the first half of the 20-th century as well as to the history of the university of Leipzig and the Leipzig institute of ethnology. Rake studied in Wroclaw, Jena and Berlin, receive in 1906 in the Hamburg ethnology museum his first employment and counted to the participants of the Hamburg South Pacific expedition. After his activity as a leader of the Viennese anthropological ethnographer's broads of institute from 1924 to 1927 he took over in Leipzig till 1945 the ethnological institute and developed it in anthropological direction. After his internment Raking lived up to his death again close to Hamburg. Beside the representation of his life and his academic career, the formation of research interests and research main focuses, his position within the scientific community as well as his engagement also beyond the university, Reches entanglements are treated at the moment of the national socialism as well as his relations with different scientific, external-scientific, party political like state places in detail.

See translation
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Offline etonexile

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Re: Disscussion-101 Reasons AA was GD Anastasia
« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2005, 05:58:12 PM »
I inject the DNA info from time to time to remind folk that AA was "NOT" AN...I have this suspicion that left to one's own devices....certain parties will fall back on the belief that AA was AN...and not FS....I know they can't help themselves....Romance can be a dangerous thing.....

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Disscussion-101 Reasons AA was GD Anastasia
« Reply #14 on: August 21, 2005, 06:25:23 PM »
Wonder what ever happen to the blood test of AA which Prof. Reche's held in his position in 1960.   ???

And, I wonder if he collected more than one photo of FS from the Schanzkowska family. ???

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152