Author Topic: Confusion about the Imperial Family's Dogs in Yekaterinburg  (Read 6893 times)

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Offline Rachael89

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Confusion about the Imperial Family's Dogs in Yekaterinburg
« on: August 20, 2005, 02:27:12 PM »
Hi all

When seeing the posts here there have been many incorrect facts that have became common.

So I thought it would be a good idea to start a thread that lists and discusses these disputable 'facts.'

I'll start, I've often seen many clashing reports about Jemmy(sp?) being either Anastasia's or Tatiana's dog. I read in Kurth's book that the dog was commonly referred to as Anastasia's although it had been given to Tatiana before the war and taken to Ipatiev house with her.

It would  be interesting to read people's thoughts on the subject.

Rachael :)
« Last Edit: May 27, 2009, 09:49:32 PM by Alixz »
It's not fair!

Offline RealAnastasia

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Re: Confusion about the Imperial Family's Dogs in Yekaterinburg
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2005, 07:29:10 PM »
Hi, Rachel!:

                     Jimmy was Tatiana's dog. You may read the fact in Anna Virubova's book. I must go to check which one of them, since I read all Anna Virubova's books and sometimes, all of them get mixed in my head. Anna Anderson said to Harriet Rathlef  that Jimmy was not hers, even if she liked to hold him.

                    RealAnastasia.

Offline Annie

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Re: Confusion about the Imperial Family's Dogs in Yekaterinburg
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2005, 10:52:08 PM »
In Anna V.'s book, she seems to describe Jemmy as her dog, and she gave it to the girls to take care of. It spent a lot of time in her room, seemed like her dog originally.

Offline RealAnastasia

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Re: Confusion about the Imperial Family's Dogs in Yekaterinburg
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2005, 07:43:07 PM »
No; go to the book and see. Jemmy was Tatiana's dog. The Anastasia's dog died from a brain dissorder. I think she didn't have another dog of her own after that. Someone may correct me if I'm wrong?

RealAnastasia. ???

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Confusion about the Imperial Family's Dogs in Yekaterinburg
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2005, 08:16:16 PM »
I believe there was more than one dog named Jemmy.

AGRBear
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

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Offline Lanie

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Re: Confusion about the Imperial Family's Dogs in Yekaterinburg
« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2005, 08:29:14 PM »
Quote
I believe there was more than one dog named Jemmy.

AGRBear


That was Ortino, who was Tatiana's bulldog.  She had another bulldog after the first Ortino died and, oddly enough, named this second one Ortino as well!

Offline RealAnastasia

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Re: Confusion about the Imperial Family's Dogs in Yekaterinburg
« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2005, 11:02:15 PM »
Thank you, Lanie! I didn't know that there were two Ortinos! That would explain why Alexei appears holding one of these dogs in a photo when he was a little boy. He couldn't possibily haver survived so many years.

RealAnastasia.

Offline Rachael89

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Re: Confusion about the Imperial Family's Dogs in Yekaterinburg
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2005, 06:27:04 AM »
Thankyou for the responses everyone I understand now! The reason I started the thread was because when reading Kurth's Anastasia he stated that Jemmy was Tatiana's dog and that it had been changed to being Anastasia's to convince people that she was in the mass grave because her dog was. Because of all the conflicting reports I thought it best to check!

Thanks again  ;D

Rachael

P.S. It's interesting to know there were two Ortinos!
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Offline RealAnastasia

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Re: Confusion about the Imperial Family's Dogs in Yekaterinburg
« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2005, 07:31:47 PM »
Even if he was her dog, I don't see any difference in the case. The fact that her dog was in the grave wouldn't make Anastasia to die along with him...

RealAnastasia.

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Confusion about the Imperial Family's Dogs in Yekaterinburg
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2005, 10:23:40 AM »
The corpse of Jemmy, the dog, was found while Gen. Domontovich was in charge of the Four Brother's mine which was being througly investigated for bones etc. of the Romanov and others.  

Summers and Mangold  book FATE OF THE TSAR p. 141 provided proof that the dog's body was too well preserved to have been in the mine since the 16/17 July 1918 to late June 1919, therefore was probably placed there for the Whites to find shortly before the dog was found.  The White were just about ready to withdraw from Ekterinburg.

It could have been someone other than the Reds, maybe, even the Whites themselves.  No one knows for sure.

It is said that the investigator Sokolov thought the finding of the dog was the clincher which proved the Romanov Imperial Family had been executed.

AGRBear  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline RealAnastasia

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Re: Confusion about the Imperial Family's Dogs in Yekaterinburg
« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2005, 07:03:05 PM »
Thank you for the info, Bear! I didn't have Summers and Mangold book, so I didn't know this. But I read "The Fate of the Romanovs" by Greg King and Penny Wilson and Jemmy's death while Anastasia was holding him in her arms is not mentionned. I was very surprised for I read a great deal of accounts about the IF murderer and they ALWAYS spoke about Jemmy in Anastasia's arms. Robert K. Massie even said that Jemmy was killed by one of the murderers, who smashed his head with a rifle butt. The only dog who dies in the King-Wilson account is Ortino.

This murder is a puzzle! There are lies even about a dog's death! What for?  :-/

RealAnastasia

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Confusion about the Imperial Family's Dogs in Yekaterinburg
« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2005, 01:31:36 PM »
The "little dog" is not mention in Yurovsky's 1920s testimony but is mentioned in his 1934 testimony:

1934 Yurovsky's testimony:
>>Although I warned them through Botkin that they didn't need to bring anything with them, they nevertheless gathered up various little things -- pillows, little  bags, and so forth--and, I believe, a little dog.<<

The "little dog"  was not Jemmy because  Jemmy was killed later.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline RealAnastasia

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Re: Confusion about the Imperial Family's Dogs in Yekaterinburg
« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2005, 08:53:23 PM »
So, it was Ortino. But in Penny Wilson and Greg King's book, I think that Netrebin stated that Ortino was killed after the murder of the IF. He was looking for his owner, when he was "impalled" by one of Yurovsky's men (I must go search in the book who he was) and bring to the truck along with the dead IF.

All this is so confusing.  :-/

RealAnastasia.

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Confusion about the Imperial Family's Dogs in Yekaterinburg
« Reply #13 on: August 31, 2005, 08:02:41 PM »
Wilson and King's THE FATE OF THE ROMANOVS p. 364

>>Kudrin recalled, one dog was killed on the night of the murders, as it came down the staircase of the Ipatiev House.  This must, then, have been Ortino, whose corpse was never found.  It is entirely possible...that Ortino's coprse was, in fact, burned at the mine....  If, as seems like, this is the case, then the forty-two bone fragments discovered by Sokolov represented not the imperial family or their retainers, but rather one of their pets.<<

I did read on one of these threads that someone had mentioned Ortino had been barking at a guard as they tried to go back up the stairs and the dog was bayoneted.   I don't recall on which thread, or, who posted it, therefore, I don't have the source.  

Here it is p. 312:

>>As Kudrin and Goloschokin walked passed the secondary staircase, the two men saw ortino, Tatiana's bulldog, whimpering at the top.  The dog rushed down the staircase in search of his mistress.  A nearby soldier grabbed a bayonet, impaled the quivering body, then heaved it into the rear of the Fiat.  "A dog's death to dogs!" Goloshchokin commented.<<

The source number is 157 =
Kudrin, Dec 1963

For more information on Kudrin  [Michael  Medvedev was his allias], please go to the thread about the shooters.  


AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline RealAnastasia

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Re: Confusion about the Imperial Family's Dogs in Yekaterinburg
« Reply #14 on: August 31, 2005, 08:46:32 PM »
I'll quote the info from "Fate of the Romanovs" by Greg king and Penny Wilson.

"...In the courtyard, Kudrin saw Goloschokin, who warned him that had been walking in Voznesensky Square and clearly heard the shots and screams from the basement. As they passed the secondary staircase, the two men saw Ortino, Tatiana's bulldog, whimpering at the top. The dog rushed down the staircase in search of her mistress. A nearby soldier grabbed a bayonet impaled the  quivering body, then heaved it onto the rear of the Fiat. ' A dog's death to dogs!', Goloschokin commented..."

Hope this info could be a help.

King and Wilson said it was Ortino who was in the top of the staircase.

I agree with you Bear: the little bones discovered by Sokolov could have been those of Ortino. I don't remember where in this Forum I read that Ortino's bones could have been mixed up with those of some chicken that one of the men of Yurovsky was eating near the burial place...Am I wrong?  :-/

RealAnastasia.