Author Topic: What about...?  (Read 68198 times)

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Offline Penny_Wilson

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Re: What about...?
« Reply #45 on: August 23, 2005, 02:54:33 PM »
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She never claimed to be ANYBODY until a fellow patient, showing her a magazine photo of Tatiana, told her she thought that must be her. Since she either didn't remember or didn't admit her real identity, the lady was guessing. The lady was interested in the Romanovs and had several magazines with their pictures under her bed.

Once this got out, people came to see this mysterious girl with amnesia who had been pulled from the canal, and who resembled a GD of Russia who had been killed. Baroness Sophie Buxhoevedon, a close friend of Alexandra's, said the moment she came in the room 'she's too short to be Tatiana.' This is TRUE, it happened.

At that point, her supporters claim she was given a piece of paper with the names of OTMA on it and crossed out all but Anastasia. However, it is an important detail to note that Anastasia was the ONLY one who shared her height, so if she knew the heights (and remember the other patient was  Romanov fan) of course she would choose her!



You are a terribly shabby historian, Annie.  You've taken bits and pieces of different events and have cobbled them together here in a fashion designed to support your pet theory.  Your post above is value-less.  I would encourage others to actually read Peter Kurth's book, which lays out the series of events as they actually happened -- the end impression is other than the one Annie gives.
"Don't do anything by half. If you love someone, love them with all your soul. When you go to work, work your ass off. When you hate someone, hate them until it hurts."  -- A Piece of Good Advice

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Offline Annie

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Re: What about...?
« Reply #46 on: August 23, 2005, 03:05:21 PM »
I gathered my info from his book as well as others, his is not the only opinion available.

I would like to see some proof she had any 'memories' or ANY mention of, or even interest in, the Romanovs BEFORE the patient showed her the picture. That's what started it all.

She was in an asylum recovering from a suicide attempt. A woman of questionable sanity with a thing for the Romanovs shows her pictures. Hmmmmm.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Annie »

Offline Penny_Wilson

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Re: What about...?
« Reply #47 on: August 23, 2005, 03:11:59 PM »
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I gathered my info from his book as well as others, his is not the only opinion available.


Then cite the sources.

Let's start here:

...until a fellow patient, showing her a magazine photo of Tatiana, told her she thought that must be her...

What is(are) the precise source(s) for this statement?
"Don't do anything by half. If you love someone, love them with all your soul. When you go to work, work your ass off. When you hate someone, hate them until it hurts."  -- A Piece of Good Advice

Sometimes the truth hurts. And sometimes it feels real good. -- Henry Rollins

Offline AGRBear

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Re: What about...?
« Reply #48 on: August 23, 2005, 03:18:57 PM »
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Well, yeah, that saves me a lot of trying to explain.

And for those who still buy the cart story as possible, remember this wasn't an equipped army traveling together on open roads with supplies, this was a half dead girl with no food or medical care on back roads with no supplies, through a year and a half of mostly hard winter. It is RIDICULOUS! No surgery, no way to stop the blood, and most of all INFECTION, no antibiotics, no anticeptics, no stitches, no food, no shelter, being jostled constantly, it's completely in the realm of scifi. And her supposed to have been pregnant and the baby ended up living, oh come on!
I would believe the Enterprise would land in my yard before I would buy that! Also when I used to believe in her I did not know the details and length of the trip and the conditions. I was more a romatic than a historian.



I have explained to you that the trip from Ekaterinburg to Bucherest was possible.  I have explained that I have letters, diaries and personal stories of my own family who traveled this same distances and, ended up in various parts of Germany in this time frame and survived.  

Can you alteast admit this trek by a healthy person was possible???

If you can't,  then you do not understand the human spirits need to survive.

If GD Anastasia was not rescued  or was rescued,  you should, also,   admit that you can't possibly know what condition she was after the night of 16th of July 1918.  For example, take a look at the bullet holes in the skeleton of #5 which is said to be GD Maria's.  There is only one and that is through the leg.  Demidova has only one bullet hole and that is the same height as GD Maria's.  Your thoughts about GD Anastasia laying all boodly and full of bullets and gaping bayonet wounds in a cart  may not be even be close to the truth.
Quote


Chart of the bullet holes found in the bones.

This is being discussed over on another thread but I thought while I had it copied,  I'd place it here, too.

AGRBear
.....



If GD Anastasia was wounded,  she still could have survived.  Have you ever read war stories about the  WWI stories or Civil War??? ??? ???  it is amazing how men survived terrible terrible wounds and grew old and enjoyed their grandchildren.


AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Annie

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Re: What about...?
« Reply #49 on: August 23, 2005, 06:31:20 PM »
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Then cite the sources.

Let's start here:

...until a fellow patient, showing her a magazine photo of Tatiana, told her she thought that must be her...

What is(are) the precise source(s) for this statement?


Let's see YOUR source there was ANY evidence she thought or said ANYTHING about ANY Romanov before this woman showed her the picture and gave her the idea!


Offline AGRBear

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Re: What about...?
« Reply #50 on: August 23, 2005, 07:15:17 PM »

Quote

Then cite the sources.

Let's start here:

...until a fellow patient, showing her a magazine photo of Tatiana, told her she thought that must be her...

What is(are) the precise source(s) for this statement?



Quote

Let's see YOUR source there was ANY evidence she thought or said ANYTHING about ANY Romanov before this woman showed her the picture and gave her the idea!



Huh??? ??? ??? ???
Annie, it's your statement not Penny's.  Therefore the burden of proof has been placed on you.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Inquiring_Mind

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Re: What about...?
« Reply #51 on: August 23, 2005, 07:17:50 PM »
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Well, yeah, that saves me a lot of trying to explain.

And for those who still buy the cart story as possible, remember this wasn't an equipped army traveling together on open roads with supplies, this was a half dead girl with no food or medical care on back roads with no supplies, through a year and a half of mostly hard winter. It is RIDICULOUS! No surgery, no way to stop the blood, and most of all INFECTION, no antibiotics, no anticeptics, no stitches, no food, no shelter, being jostled constantly, it's completely in the realm of scifi. And her supposed to have been pregnant and the baby ended up living, oh come on!
I would believe the Enterprise would land in my yard before I would buy that! Also when I used to believe in her I did not know the details and length of the trip and the conditions. I was more a romatic than a historian.



Annie,

Do you know if at that time before helicopters to pick up the wounded, did traveling armies leave their wounded behind or take those unfortunates with them?

How well equipped were they?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Inquiring_Mind »
I chose the road less traveled and now...where the heck am I????

Offline Annie

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Re: What about...?
« Reply #52 on: August 23, 2005, 07:20:39 PM »
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Huh??? ??? ??? ???
Annie, it's your statement not Penny's.  Therefore the burden of proof has been placed on you.

AGRBear


You all are the ones who harp on and on about sources, so let's see it!

Easy way to get out of it, this is really a stickler, isn't it ;D

Offline Annie

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Re: What about...?
« Reply #53 on: August 23, 2005, 07:21:56 PM »
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Annie,

Do you know if at that time before helicopters to pick up the wounded, did traveling armies leave their wounded behind or take those unfortunates with them?

How  well equipt were they?


I am talking about a very extreme worst case scenario here.

Human bodies bleed to death very fast, and die of infection, even with treatment in the pre penicillin days.

Offline RealAnastasia

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Re: What about...?
« Reply #54 on: August 23, 2005, 07:31:28 PM »
Well; Annie is right in one point. AA had a magazine about the imperial family , not under her bed , but under her mattres, that is pretty similar . This is the actual info, that I took from his book:

"...And she bore such a striking ressemblance to the Russian imperial family. So, at least, the nurses thought when they compared her features to photographs of the imperial family printed in a cheap illustrated magazine. There were many of these publications lying about the asylum in the library and on the tables, some of them dating from as far back as 1914 and others, more recent recounting the sensationals news of the murder of the Tsar and his family at Ekaterinburg. One photograph of the Tsar's four daughters had inmediately caught the nurses attention. They had looked at it very carefully , they had discussed it together, and finally they had decided to force the issue: they brought the magazine to Fraülein Unbekannt..."

But the fact that she never claimed to be ANYBODY before someone said to her that she ressembles a Romanov is not true. Here it is the info quoted by Peter Kurth. She spoke to another nurse BEFORE Thea Malinovksy showed her  the photography, and, if it is true that she didn't CLAIM that she was Anastasia, she made the matter quite obvious to the nurse when she pointed at Anastasia's photo. Here is the info:

"...Nurse Walz believed that this was the first time Farülein Unbekannt had seen the photographs of the imperial family, but according to another reprot it was not. Thea Malinovsky, a night nurse who had only recently taken up her post, remembered the evening Fraülein Unbekannt had approached her at the desk. The incident took her completely by surprise:

'...After she had been sitting with me for about half an  hour, she said that she wanted to show me something. She went to her bed and pulled a "Berliner Illustrierte" out from under her mattres. On the cover was a photograph of the Russian imperial family. She put the magazine down in front of me and asked if I was not struck by something in the picture. I looked closely at the photograph but didn't know what she was driving out. However, as I looked longer it occurred to me that Fraülein Unbekannt bore a distinct ressemblance to the youngest of the Tsar's daughters. But I pretended that I couldn't see anything in particular, whereupon she pointed to the young girl and asked if I still didn't notice anything. I said no. She asked "Then, you don't see any ressemblance between the two of us?" Now, I had to admit that I did indeed see a ressemblance. Suddenly, she got very upset. I asked her if was she. She turned away, not wanting to let out any more. I told her that she shouldn't have come this far unless she was prepared to tell me the rest..."

This was in Peter Kurth book, pages 11 and 12.

So, perhaps she saw many magazines with Romanov photos in them, but she seemed particulary found of this one, where the imperial girls where portrayed.  And the incident with the nurses happened in the Autumn   1921, so you'll see she never said she was Tatiana. The nurses themselves identified her as Anastasia. Only Clara Peuthert said she was Tatiana, and repeated her conviction to all the monarchist she knew in Berlin, startin by the Captain Von Schwabe...

RealAnastasia.

Offline Annie

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Re: What about...?
« Reply #55 on: August 23, 2005, 07:46:15 PM »
Thanks for posting all that! But it still appears that she did not mention it until she had the pictures of the family and got the idea.

It really seems as if she was a sad, lonely, pathetic creature who hated her indentity and desperately wanted a new one in which she'd be loved.

Offline RealAnastasia

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Re: What about...?
« Reply #56 on: August 23, 2005, 07:49:51 PM »
And if we are speaking about AA trip from Russia to Bucarest and then to Germany, I may answer this with my conversation with other "expert". This way, it was not a scientist, but a poor woman who escaped from Soviet Russia, and then from Nazi Germany toward France right in the middle of the WWII. Her name is Maria Gulyassy, and she has hungarian roots. She was living accidentally in Russia, and as you know, it was not allowed to Soviet citizens to emigrate as if they wanted to. So, she must escape. She was very ill, and very near to gave birth to her second child, Iky. So, she made her trip lying in a Russian charriot, exactly like AA claimed. She also went to Rumania, but she doesn't even enter in Bucarest. She and her husband avoided cities and to crowded populations. They crossed the frontier BY FEET, left the charriot behind. They begged for food in country cabins and made the rest of the trip by horse, charriot and by feet. They went all along Germany, hiding in countrymen houses, woods etc. It was winter. Finally, Maria could gave birth, near the frontier with Free France. She must continue her trip with her baby daughter in her arms. She said me that she was over the point to have gangrena in them. They were stiff to hold permanently Iky. Besides, sometimes the baby would cry and and they could have been discoveres. Her elder daughter, named Maria too, walked near her parents, and her legs ached terribily. She was scorbutic and with her skin covered by a strange exantema. When they finally arrived to France, they were exhausted, and they must go to the hospital.

A trip much more long than AA one, as you can see. And besides, I know other similar stories (Argentina is an inmigration country as the States). When I was a little girl I could hear some similar stories about people escaping from Bolshevik Russia or the WWI in other points of Europe. My own Greatgrandpa was a soldier in the WWI, in France, and told me very sad stories of people escaping their countries. And they were MUCH more terrifying than AA's one. Of course, this not means that AA was saying the truth, but her story could have easily happened.

RealAnastasia.

Offline Annie

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Re: What about...?
« Reply #57 on: August 23, 2005, 07:53:47 PM »
Were these people bleeding profusely from numerous bullet and bayonet wounds?

There is a difference between plain escaping and escaping in the condition and situation she was in. Sophie B. and Gilliard and Gibbes had a long and interesting adventure escaping across Siberia during the civil war in times when you never knew who was your friend or what side who was on. But they were not mortally wounded! One young teacher with them became ill with fever and died along the way.

The story could not 'easily' have happened. If it did happen, it was very difficult. But it didn't,  so it doesn't matter.

Again, if we can't put this ridiculous fantasy to bed, we will never discover the answers to what really did happen.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Annie »

Offline Inquiring_Mind

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Re: What about...?
« Reply #58 on: August 23, 2005, 08:01:06 PM »
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I am talking about a very extreme worst case scenario here.

Human bodies bleed to death very fast, and die of infection, even with treatment in the pre penicillin days.


Annie,
I'm just looking for a good conversation and using only sources from my own experience.

Bear asked us to look at the wounds in the mass grave. What if AN had broken bones and clean exit wounds that didn't hit anything major? People back the weren't entirely clueless. My grandmother before the 1950's and before penicillin knew that moldy bread could starve off infection. Doctors in rural areas were few and people would go into the woods for their remedies. My "Bobci" lived to be 98 and she often told me that a young strong body was hard to kill.


I chose the road less traveled and now...where the heck am I????

Offline Inquiring_Mind

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Re: What about...?
« Reply #59 on: August 23, 2005, 08:04:42 PM »
And this point is furthered by the horrific scene in that cellar...they were not an easy kill.
I chose the road less traveled and now...where the heck am I????