Author Topic: What about...?  (Read 76799 times)

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Offline etonexile

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Re: What about...?
« Reply #540 on: September 30, 2005, 08:50:09 AM »
Life on the treadmill...
If the DNA only pointed in one direction...that AA was not related to ANY(as in none,zero,zilch,nada) member of the IF...that should be enough for most sentient beings...but it points also in the direction that AA was most likely a member of the S family...as suspected....You couldn't write fiction this way and not get smirks....

And as to all who have "scientist friends" who don't accept DNA evidence...I doubt they represent all their fellows...I know scientists who believe in "Intelligent Design"...Like they can be taken seriously....

Offline LyliaM

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Re: What about...?
« Reply #541 on: September 30, 2005, 09:13:37 AM »
Many would counter that it's precisely the fact that the DNA results purportedly illustrate not only that AA was not only (1) NOT related to the IF, but that she was (2) ALSO most likely a Polish factory worker (one possessed of remarkable powers of clairvoyance, personal persuasion , and ties within the highest political circles of the day, who also somehow managed to study and memorize personal details of the Russian and European families' interrelationships, personal residences, and personal effects, and somehow lucked out by having AN's mole-removal scar, bunions, height,  eye color, hair color, multiple stab wounds -- oh yeah, and ears -- and convinced somebody to smash her face with a rifle but so that it would look like she had been endangered), that make the DNA test results appear a wee bit odd.  Etonexile, I find your assertion that "you couldn't write fiction this way and not get smirks" more applicable to the set of circumstances I've just described.

And, to clarify my scientist friend's position on this (to the extent that he has a position, which is questionable, since he is not at all interested in this matter), he does not question the validity of DNA.  What he said he would question, in THIS CASE, is the fact that the DNA is utterly at odds with all of the other forensic evidence.   My friend is one of 13 individuals worldwide who has an expertise in the area of bioinformatics, and his credentials are beyond reproach.  So I must object to any implication that he's some dimestore amateur just throwing his half-baked opinions out there for the hell of it.

Again, I am curious as to why people who think this entire matter is a waste of time would bother to visit this forum and post the same tired statements, over and over again.   The argument of saving generations of innocents from the scourge of disinformation doesn't hold water.  Many of the posters on these boards (if they're even still here, that is) are well-respected historians who  have been able to provide sources for all of their statements, so to the extent that they don't accept the DNA results as the final dispositive word in this matter, they're doing so with well-documented historical facts to back up their arguments.
We only know in age what happened to us in youth.  -- Goethe

Offline Louis_Charles

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Re: What about...?
« Reply #542 on: September 30, 2005, 09:27:52 AM »
Dear Lylia,

You make excellent points. Does your friend have an opinion as to how the DNA evidence could not only have  been at odds with the anthropological evidence, but actually supported the identification as the woman Andersen was originally accused of being? This is not meant as a snappy comeback, by the way. I am really curious as to whether this could have happened without some kind of switch, i.e. is there any way of looking at the DNA evidence as in and of itself being wrong without human involvement to tamper with it?

Simon
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Offline LyliaM

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Re: What about...?
« Reply #543 on: September 30, 2005, 09:49:15 AM »
Simon -- I will certainly ask him that.  I'm sure he will have some type of opinion, since he generally does!  He is not the sort of person to accept statements without credible scientific evidence to support them.

And yes, I do find the notion that the tissue sample could somehow have been switched (yes, I'm picturing QEII herself sneaking into a lab, cloaked in a black catsuit under cover of darkest night, to effect the switch) utterly preposterous, by the way. I just want an answer , and I recognize that I'm probably never going to get it.  (Masochism at its finest. )
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Offline Annie

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Re: What about...?
« Reply #544 on: September 30, 2005, 09:58:22 AM »
Quote
Many would counter that it's precisely the fact that the DNA results purportedly illustrate not only that AA was not only (1) NOT related to the IF, but that she was (2) ALSO most likely a Polish factory worker (one possessed of remarkable powers of clairvoyance, personal persuasion , and ties within the highest political circles of the day, who also somehow managed to study and memorize personal details of the Russian and European families' interrelationships, personal residences, and personal effects,


She didn't know that much, and some things she got wrong. Other things could easily have been told to her by Russian emigres, there were very many in Europe in the 1920's! While I do think she was purposely 'fed' info by some, much of it could have been inadvertently told to her in stories, or leading questions, and she picked up on it. But she didn't see any of it first hand, she wasn't Anastasia. SOMEBODY had to tell her, and there are many who would have known.

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and somehow lucked out by having AN's mole-removal scar, bunions, height,  eye color, hair color,


I don't know about a mole, but bunions are not uncommon, especially among people who spend a lot of time on their feet. Hair can be dyed. We only have black and white pics anyway. Many women are five foot two, eyes of blue- there's even a song about it.

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multiple stab wounds --


Or is this from that grenade explosion at the munitions factory where FS worked? Oh sure, one person is now claiming this never happened, seems to be like a convenient way of getting rid of FS, like the Grossman stuff. It was known to have happened all those years ago, and is mentioned in several books, including Massie's. It would take quite a bit to convince me otherwise. But even if that wasn't the cause, she could have gotten it some other way, how about running from Grossman? However AA got those injuries, they did not take place in a cellar in Ekaterinburg, and survive a 2,800 muddy cart ride through rough terrain and all types of weather with no medical care.


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oh yeah, and ears --


Grainy black and white photo.

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and convinced somebody to smash her face with a rifle but so that it would look like she had been endangered),


If AN were smashed in the face with a rifle butt, her face would look like a damaged, messed up version of her own face, not a completely different woman's face.

Quote
that make the DNA test results appear a wee bit odd.  


DNA is solid proof, all the other stuff was always questionable, now we have the final answer of who was right and who was not.


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Annie »

Offline AGRBear

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Re: What about...?
« Reply #545 on: September 30, 2005, 10:03:15 AM »
Quote

Annouchka:

"For years the peasants have whispered amongst themselves of four beautiful sisters dressed in moonlight moving through the trees of the forest . . . four . . .but now I know there can be only three!"


ANASTASIA by Marcelle Maurette, Act II.




And why would the play have to be changed?  According to the majority GD Anastasia died that night and was buried near the mass grave.  Are you telling me, now, that she wasn't killed that night?  

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

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Offline LyliaM

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Re: What about...?
« Reply #546 on: September 30, 2005, 10:05:46 AM »
Annie -- Your post has left me speechless.  

I take everything I said back.  I had no idea there were such credible explanations for every point I raised!

Now hanging her head in shame at her ignorance,

LyliaM
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Offline Louis_Charles

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Re: What about...?
« Reply #547 on: September 30, 2005, 10:50:27 AM »
Quote


And why would the play have to be changed?  According to the majority GD Anastasia died that night and was buried near the mass grave.  Are you telling me, now, that she wasn't killed that night?  

AGRBear



That's it exactly, Bear.
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Offline Louis_Charles

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Re: What about...?
« Reply #548 on: September 30, 2005, 10:53:23 AM »
Do I detect irony in the room, Lylia?

And Bear, you have misunderstood my post. I was referring to the quality of the McNeal quote's writing style. Ironic, isn't it?

;)

Regards,

Simon
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Offline AGRBear

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Re: What about...?
« Reply #549 on: September 30, 2005, 10:55:36 AM »
Quote

She didn't know that much, and some things she got wrong. Other things could easily have been told to her by Russian emigres, there were very many in Europe in the 1920's! While I do think she was purposely 'fed' info by some, much of it could have been inadvertently told to her in stories, or leading questions, and she picked up on it. But she didn't see any of it first hand, she wasn't Anastasia. SOMEBODY had to tell her, and there are many who would have known.


The secret story about Uncle Ernie is a good example of what AA knew and should not have known if she was FS.  This is why the anit-AA group constantly fight tooth and nail to prove it didn't happen.  

From where I stand,  I think Uncle Ernie did visit Russia in 1916 since Galtzine knew Uncle Ernie,  was present in the palace at the time and had no reason to lie when he gave his testimony in court in 1965.

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I don't know about a mole, but bunions are not uncommon, especially among people who spend a lot of time on their feet. Hair can be dyed. We only have black and white pics anyway. Many women are five foot two, eyes of blue- there's even a song about it.



I do believe it was proven that GD Anastasia did have a mole in the same area and that she did have this bunion deformity.   As to the hair coloring.  Well,  Annie, is showing her lack of knowledge of hair coloring back in the 1920s.   Eye coloring is difficult because they change and people's memories are not very good.  I'm not sure that color photography was used before 1918 and I think the method of colorizing photographs were done with brush and paint.

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Or is this from that grenade explosion at the munitions factory where FS worked?


No matter how many times Annie tells this rumor,  it is not a fact.  According to the medical reports of the doctors who treated FS after the explosion,  she did NOT suffer any physical wounds.

Quote
Oh sure, one person is now claiming this never happened, seems to be like a convenient way of getting rid of FS, like the Grossman stuff. It was known to have happened all those years ago, and is mentioned in several books, including Massie's. It would take quite a bit to convince me otherwise. But even if that wasn't the cause, she could have gotten it some other way, how about running from Grossman? However AA got those injuries, they did not take place in a cellar in Ekaterinburg, and survive a 2,800 muddy cart ride through rough terrain and all types of weather with no medical care.



According to the Berlin police, who have never reversed their conclusion,  FS was murdered by Grossmann on 13 Aug 1920.  A killing of convience?

AA, if she was not GD Anastasia,  could abd did suffered a blow to the face   However,  FS, as far as we know,  did not have such a injury before Dec. 25 of 1919 when she visited her family for Christmas.  This was an injury considered "old" by the doctors at both the hospital where she as first admitted and, again, later at Dalldorf.

If GD Anastasia survived the execution in Ekatherinburg,  we have no idea what here injuries were or even if she had any.  So,  the description of her laying half dead in a cart may not be accurate.  Remember,  this is the description AA gave and I believe most of you don't believe her story, anyway.  However,  as I have pointed out in great detail and even have given a map,  explain that such a journey was possible and was done so by many many others who escaped to Berlin.  Why do I know?  I have relatives who did.   And, yes,  one in particular was eight month's pregnant by the time she reached Berlin with three small children ages 1,2 and 3 1/2 and without her husband who had been taken forcefully into the German Army.
Quote
Grainy black and white photo.


Which photos?
Quote

If AN were smashed in the face with a rifle butt, her face would look like a damaged, messed up version of her own face, not a completely different woman's face.


If GD Anastasia suffered a blow to the face,  we do not know the damage because no one has found her skeleton to this point in time.  It's the one missing.  

Quote
DNA is solid proof, all the other stuff was always questionable, now we have the final answer of who was right and who was not.



The DNA and the other evidence should go hand-in-hand but they don't.  Why?  

AGRBear
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

IlyaBorisovich

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Re: What about...?
« Reply #550 on: September 30, 2005, 10:56:23 AM »
Quote
Annie -- Your post has left me speechless.  

I take everything I said back.  I had no idea there were such credible explanations for every point I raised!

Now hanging her head in shame at her ignorance,

LyliaM

Lylia,

Please understand that the subtleties of such sarcasm escape Annie.  Perhaps you should 'fess up before she books the local firehall for her victory party.  Word to the wise, eh? ;)

Ilya

Offline AGRBear

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Re: What about...?
« Reply #551 on: September 30, 2005, 10:56:39 AM »
Quote

She didn't know that much, and some things she got wrong. Other things could easily have been told to her by Russian emigres, there were very many in Europe in the 1920's! While I do think she was purposely 'fed' info by some, much of it could have been inadvertently told to her in stories, or leading questions, and she picked up on it. But she didn't see any of it first hand, she wasn't Anastasia. SOMEBODY had to tell her, and there are many who would have known.


The secret story about Uncle Ernie is a good example of what AA knew and should not have known if she was FS.  This is why the anit-AA group constantly fight tooth and nail to prove it didn't happen.  

From where I stand,  I think Uncle Ernie did visit Russia in 1916 since Galtzine knew Uncle Ernie,  was present in the palace at the time and had no reason to lie when he gave his testimony in court in 1965.

Quote
I don't know about a mole, but bunions are not uncommon, especially among people who spend a lot of time on their feet. Hair can be dyed. We only have black and white pics anyway. Many women are five foot two, eyes of blue- there's even a song about it.



I do believe it was proven that GD Anastasia did have a mole in the same area and that she did have this bunion deformity.   As to the hair coloring.  Well,  Annie, is showing her lack of knowledge of hair coloring back in the 1920s.   Eye coloring is difficult because they change and people's memories are not very good.  I'm not sure that color photography was used before 1918 and I think the method of colorizing photographs were done with brush and paint.

Quote
Or is this from that grenade explosion at the munitions factory where FS worked?


No matter how many times Annie tells this rumor,  it is not a fact.  According to the medical reports of the doctors who treated FS after the explosion,  she did NOT suffer any physical wounds.

Quote
Oh sure, one person is now claiming this never happened, seems to be like a convenient way of getting rid of FS, like the Grossman stuff. It was known to have happened all those years ago, and is mentioned in several books, including Massie's. It would take quite a bit to convince me otherwise. But even if that wasn't the cause, she could have gotten it some other way, how about running from Grossman? However AA got those injuries, they did not take place in a cellar in Ekaterinburg, and survive a 2,800 muddy cart ride through rough terrain and all types of weather with no medical care.



According to the Berlin police, who have never reversed their conclusion,  FS was murdered by Grossmann on 13 Aug 1920.  A killing of convience?

AA, if she was not GD Anastasia,  could and did suffered a blow to the face   However,  FS, as far as we know,  did not have such a injury before Dec. 25 of 1919 when she visited her family for Christmas.  This was an injury considered "old" by the doctors at both the hospital where she as first admitted in Feb of 1920 and, again, later at Dalldorf in March 1920.

If GD Anastasia survived the execution in Ekatherinburg,  we have no idea what her injuries were or even if she had any.  So,  the description of her laying half dead in a cart may not be accurate.  Remember,  this is the description AA gave and I believe most of you don't believe her story, anyway.  However,  as I have pointed out in great detail and even have given a map,  explain that such a journey was possible and was done so by many many others who escaped to Berlin.  Why do I know?  I have relatives who did.   And, yes,  one in particular was eight month's pregnant by the time she reached Berlin with three small children ages 1,2 and 3 1/2 and without her husband who had been taken forcefully into the German Army.
Quote
Grainy black and white photo.


Which photos?
Quote

If AN were smashed in the face with a rifle butt, her face would look like a damaged, messed up version of her own face, not a completely different woman's face.


If GD Anastasia suffered a blow to the face,  we do not know the damage because no one has found her skeleton to this point in time.  It's the one missing.  

Quote
DNA is solid proof, all the other stuff was always questionable, now we have the final answer of who was right and who was not.



The DNA and the other evidence should go hand-in-hand but they don't.  Why?  

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

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Re: What about...?
« Reply #552 on: September 30, 2005, 11:08:08 AM »
Hey everyone,  a question:  Are any of you having difficulty writing a post and/or getting the post to work?

I notice Ilya posted twice and so did mine.... I removed my second one as did Ilya.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Annie

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Re: What about...?
« Reply #553 on: September 30, 2005, 11:49:20 AM »
Quote

The secret story about Uncle Ernie is a good example of what AA knew and should not have known if she was FS.  This is why the anit-AA group constantly fight tooth and nail to prove it didn't happen.  

From where I stand,  I think Uncle Ernie did visit Russia in 1916 since Galtzine knew Uncle Ernie,  was present in the palace at the time and had no reason to lie when he gave his testimony in court in 1965.


The only reason anyone fights this is because there is no proof it is true. You seem to readily accept it on ONE man's testimony, one man who may be wrong, one man who was elderly and possibly not completely in possession of a perfect memory at the time, yet you deny the DNA which is much stronger.




Quote
No matter how many times Annie tells this rumor,  it is not a fact.  According to the medical reports of the doctors who treated FS after the explosion,  she did NOT suffer any physical wounds.


RUMOR??!! It was accepted fact for decades, and the only bit of evidence against it is from one person whose motives in the AA case I seriously question, so I will not accept her word alone. Think about it, wouldn't such things have been misplaced years ago, and if they weren't found for her trial, why now? Could it be the person who is claiming to find them is wrong, or her source was bogus? You state as fact that her info is right and I, and Robert K. Massie are wrong. It's clear you only believe what you choose to accept.

It has always been accepted she did get wounded, which is what set her toward the insanity she was declared to have soon after, and possibly eventually led to her suicide attempt in 1920. You CANNOT state as a fact that it didn't occur, when as it stands now, there is more evidence it did than did not!


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According to the Berlin police, who have never reversed their conclusion,  FS was murdered by Grossmann on 13 Aug 1920.  A killing of convience?


Police dept's, even in America, are often anxious to close a case and write off a murder to a serial killer when there is no proof. There was no body, no 'forensic' evidence, all we have are a misspelled name and a guess that she was missing at the same time he was active. She would not have been a factor in the trial if she were so 'dead', it was clear by that time the police were mistaken.



Quote
If GD Anastasia suffered a blow to the face,  we do not know the damage because no one has found her skeleton to this point in time.  It's the one missing.


Russian scientists say it's Maria. Other claim it's Tatiana. There were also some reports by Bolsheviks that 2 bodies were cremated, so this could explain the missing bodies. Or she could have lived, and been someone other than AA. But AA wasn't AN! 



Quote
The DNA and the other evidence should go hand-in-hand but they don't.  Why?  

AGRBear


Because the people who said this or that were WRONG, or remembered WRONG, or lied, or were mistaken.

Offline AGRBear

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Re: What about...?
« Reply #554 on: September 30, 2005, 12:26:25 PM »
Quote

The only reason anyone fights this is because there is no proof it is true. You seem to readily accept it on ONE man's testimony, one man who may be wrong, one man who was elderly and possibly not completely in possession of a perfect memory at the time, yet you deny the DNA which is much stronger.


There are certain events a person remembers no matter how old they become.  I suspect if the memory of Galitzin was poor, the opposition would have proven this.  Did they?  To add to Galitzin's testimony are others who spoke the Kaiser Wilhlem and the other to the Emp. of Austria.  Since I have no reason [none have been given here] to find Galitzin's testimony false then I'll lean toward the fact that Uncle Ernie did take a secret trip to Russia in 1916.


Quote
RUMOR??!! It was accepted fact for decades, and the only bit of evidence against it is from one person whose motives in the AA case I seriously question, so I will not accept her word alone. Think about it, wouldn't such things have been misplaced years ago, and if they weren't found for her trial, why now? Could it be the person who is claiming to find them is wrong, or her source was bogus? You state as fact that her info is right and I, and Robert K. Massie are wrong. It's clear you only believe what you choose to accept.


It has always been accepted she did get wounded, which is what set her toward the insanity she was declared to have soon after, and possibly eventually led to her suicide attempt in 1920. You CANNOT state as a fact that it didn't occur, when as it stands now, there is more evidence it did than did not!


Why do you think I am calling Massie a lier or a man who is fabricating evidence?  My goodness,  even authors can be caught up in a rumor/misinformtion when so many were so convincing in the telling.  

It wasn't until Penny and Greg were shown the medical files of FS found by a detective/researcher that they discovered  FS had no physical damage from the grenade.  Penny was generous with her information and, now,  we need to rewrite that part of AA's history.  The actual source will probably be mentioned in a book and you'll get to see a copy of the document I'm sure.
History is often in need of being rewritten when new and sound evidence is found.

Quote
Police dept's, even in America, are often anxious to close a case and write off a murder to a serial killer when there is no proof. There was no body, no 'forensic' evidence, all we have are a misspelled name and a guess that she was missing at the same time he was active. She would not have been a factor in the trial if she were so 'dead', it was clear by that time the police were mistaken.



Yes, police departments make mistakes.  However, it doesn't appear that anyone in Berlin has admitted to a mistake on the FS case.

And, yes, FS could have been one of Grossmann's victims who got away on 13 Aug 1920....

Once again, the spelling of the name by Grossmann is how FS's last name would have sounded to a German writing down a Polish name.   I am not aware of any other woman with the same sounding name has ever been mentioned as having been reported missing in Berlin.  Have you?


Quote
Russian scientists say it's Maria. Other claim it's Tatiana. There were also some reports by Bolsheviks that 2 bodies were cremated, so this could explain the missing bodies. Or she could have lived, and been someone other than AA. But AA wasn't AN! 


We know that the creamtion of 2 bodies with the amount of fuel Yurovsky claimed they used was impossible.  

And, yes, the missing Grand Duchess may have escaped and lived.

Because of the DNA tests,  we can assume that AA was NOT GD Anastasia/Maria/Tatiana/Olga.

Quote
Because the people who said this or that were WRONG, or remembered WRONG, or lied, or were mistaken.


There is a reason the DNA and the circumstanial evidence seem to differ but I haven't found the answer why this appears to be so.  Just saying people ..."were WRONG, or remembers WRONG, or lied, or were mistaken,"  isn't evidence, this is your opinion.   So, tell me,  who was wrong, who remembered wrong, who lied and who was mistaken.  Please,  remember your sources.

AGRBear

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152