Author Topic: What about...?  (Read 69164 times)

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Offline AGRBear

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Re: What about...?
« Reply #30 on: August 22, 2005, 11:53:57 PM »
Quote

...[in part]...

... She was NEVER on the grounds of the German embassy in Bucharest! There was no 2800 cart ride in the mud lasting 18 months through long winter weather with a bloodied girl oh PLEASE this did not happen, wake up!

NO PROOF other than ONE person's presumed comment that this even happened. It may be totally made up.

...


Please,  stop trying to convince me the trip AA claimed she took from Ekaterinburg to Bucherest could not occur in the time given in AA's story.  Why?  Over on the thread Anna Anderson's Story  I've explained that I have all kinds of letters of those who traveled this distance by GRs [German-Russians] who fled Russia into Rumania and went on to Germany about this same time.  I even gave a map.

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Since most of you know my AGRBear means American-German-Russian-Bear,  I know a great deal about the journey between Germany and Russia.  I have found diaries, read books and heard family stories about how the Germans migr. to all corners of Russia from the late 1700s into about the 1850s.  Since  some of my ancestors walked from Alsace [north of Strassburg] to Russia to Odessa then on to Kherson over to  Tiflis in the Caucasus then to Palestine in the early 1800s, I can honestly say, yes, such a trip is possible.

In several of my books there are daily accounts of several people who traveled from Germany to Russia.  Some traveled  by land and the others  was from Ulm on boat on the Danube River into Russia and by wagon to Odessa area.

Here is a photographs of people traveling during the WWI in Russia:



I think chintz22 has the correct idea on the math but I'll have to dig out some of my books, study the dates and then reverse them.

As you can see by the photo there was no need for GD Anastasia to be hidden once the Tschaikovskys mingled with the masses.  Papers could be found on those who  died along the way or were stolen.  If that didn't work, money touched hands.

I believe she menioned a cart to Bucherest, Rumania but I don't recall her mentioning any sort of method of travel to Berlin.  I suspsect it was by train.

AGRBear



It does not help your discussion to misinform other posters about this part of AA's story of escape.

If AA was not G D Anastasia, then AA's story may be made up but she wasn't a dummy and knew it could be done.

Added to this is the fact that a German officer claims he saw GD Anastasia in a cart in Sept. who was headed to the grounds of the German embassy in Bucherest, Rumania.

The German courts found him and he testified in AA's trial.

How did AA know about this officer's story to be able to incorporate it into her own story of escape?

AND,  whom did this German officer see in the cart?  Was it GD Anastasia?  If the young woman was not GD Anastasia,  why was he, an officer in the German intelligence,  told the young woman was GD Anasasia?

I'd like to know what all the testimony was that surrounded this officer's testimony.  Just as I'd like to  know what lead the court to this officer....

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

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Re: What about...?
« Reply #31 on: August 23, 2005, 12:26:36 AM »
Quote

...[in part]...
And again, you IGNORE the PROOF and DOCUMENTATION of valid scientific evidence, so don't talk to me about 'sources' as long as you fail to acknowledge that!

....


Why do you continue to say I am ignoring the DNA/mtDNA tests?

Up to this time, I have NOT made any such statement.  In fact, you have no idea what I have concluded through my 58 years of reseach.  

What I have said is:  The evidence, with or without the DNA, should tell us that AA was not GD Anastasia.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Rachael89

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Re: What about...?
« Reply #32 on: August 23, 2005, 05:44:33 AM »
Annie

If you don't mind me asking please will you answer my original question? What's your theory?

Rachael

P.S. Sorry if I've diverted your thread from it's original purpose RealAnastasia! I think it's a good idea, to see who people with no previous knowledge of Anna Anderson and see who they pick out who they think looks simalar out of AN, FS and AA. I'll try it out later!
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Offline Annie

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Re: What about...?
« Reply #33 on: August 23, 2005, 09:49:02 AM »
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Annie

If you don't mind me asking please will you answer my original question? What's your theory?

Rachael



What was it again?

Offline Annie

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Re: What about...?
« Reply #34 on: August 23, 2005, 09:55:45 AM »
Quote

Please,  stop trying to convince me the trip AA claimed she took from Ekaterinburg to Bucherest could not occur in the time given in AA's story.  Why?  Over on the thread Anna Anderson's Story  I've explained that I have all kinds of letters of those who traveled this distance by GRs [German-Russians] who fled Russia into Rumania and went on to Germany about this same time.  I even gave a map.

Added to this is the fact that a German officer claims he saw GD Anastasia in a cart in Sept. who was headed to the grounds of the German embassy in Bucherest, Rumania.





There is a BIG diffference between military moving along that way, and ONE guy pulling one critically wounded girl without even a horse, through mud, back roads, all kinds of weather, no medical care, no food, supplies, etc. If someone saw someone on the grounds of the embassy, they were either lying or mistaken, it was NOT Anastasia! And it certainly wasn't AA, since she doesn't even look enough like AN to be readily recognized by someone who only barely knew what AN looked like! Remember, no internet, no TV, they did not have the access to pictures we have today. It's all so ridiculous.



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It does not help your discussion to misinform other posters about this part of AA's story of escape.


Encouraging anyone to believe in such outlandish unreality is really misinforming posters!

Quote
If AA was not G D Anastasia, then AA's story may be made up but she wasn't a dummy and knew it could be done.


Her story was ridiculous, and no I don't think she researched it, she just came up with it because she needed an excuse.


Quote
The German courts found him and he testified in AA's trial.

How did AA know about this officer's story to be able to incorporate it into her own story of escape?

AND,  whom did this German officer see in the cart?  Was it GD Anastasia?  If the young woman was not GD Anastasia,  why was he, an officer in the German intelligence,  told the young woman was GD Anasasia?



AGRBear


This seems like a plant to me, either told to say that, or thought he could captialize. Think about it, how would he even know what she looked like, much less recognize her bloody in a cart, and AA doesn't even look enough like her to make somebody go 'oh look there's AN!" If the suggestion is made, some will see it because they are thinking of it, or they want to, but nobody would just say it was her out of the clear blue sky.

Offline etonexile

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Re: What about...?
« Reply #35 on: August 23, 2005, 10:12:26 AM »
In light of what we know now...that AA was NOT AN...!!!!!("NOT")!!!!!...that means ..."is a negative"....Are we on the same level of understanding....?...Erm....maybe not....

"AA was NOT AN...and most likely WAS FS"......(Gad....I need to have this tatooed on my forehead)....All the amazing stories of bloodied women in carts in the middle of no-where being recognized by German officers who'd likely never met her....are pure bunk...Harlequin Romances aside....

I now know how telephone soliciters make their millions.... ::)

Offline Rachael89

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Re: What about...?
« Reply #36 on: August 23, 2005, 10:17:19 AM »
Hi Annie

I was just wondering what your theory was as to how if AA was FS how could she speak Russian and English when under sedation (souce: Kurth). If FS was only known to speak Geramn and a little Polish?

Thanks

Rachael
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Offline AGRBear

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Re: What about...?
« Reply #37 on: August 23, 2005, 11:44:04 AM »
Quote

...[in part]....

There is a BIG diffference between military moving along that way, and ONE guy pulling one critically wounded girl without even a horse, through mud, back roads, all kinds of weather, no medical care, no food, supplies, etc. If someone saw someone on the grounds of the embassy, they were either lying or mistaken, it was NOT Anastasia! And it certainly wasn't AA, since she doesn't even look enough like AN to be readily recognized by someone who only barely knew what AN looked like! Remember, no internet, no TV, they did not have the access to pictures we have today. It's all so ridiculous.

Encouraging anyone to believe in such outlandish unreality is really misinforming posters!


 Her story was ridiculous, and no I don't think she researched it, she just came up with it because she needed an excuse.

....


The photo above are Russians treking in waves and taken in that time period.

I am not encouraging anyone to believe what wasn't possible because people did move great distances at that time, including many members of my own family.  Therefore, her story of escape wasn't ridiculous and was possible.

AA, if we assume she was not GD Anastasia, might not have been part of this kind of trek but I'm sure she heard of many stories of people who had accomplished this trek.

So, please, Annie,  stop telling people that such as trip was not possible,  IT WAS POSSIBLE.

It is amazing what people can do when life makes such demands.

AGRBear



 

"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

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Re: What about...?
« Reply #38 on: August 23, 2005, 11:50:30 AM »
Quote
...[in part]...

This seems like a plant to me, either told to say that, or thought he could captialize. Think about it, how would he even know what she looked like, much less recognize her bloody in a cart, and AA doesn't even look enough like her to make somebody go 'oh look there's AN!" If the suggestion is made, some will see it because they are thinking of it, or they want to, but nobody would just say it was her out of the clear blue sky.


A plant?  By whom?  A friend of AA's?  CHEKA?  Nazi officials?  

You don't even know anything about this Lt. Colonel Hassenstein of the German intelligence  nor have you read the trial transcript so please tell me how you came to this opinion.

Nor do you know what or who he knew?

The two stories may well be independent of the other.  And, AA may well have heard about it and took it into her own story.  So who was the person who knew about Hassenstein's story and then told AA?

These are the kinds of questions we need to ask if we're to discover everything we need to know about AA and her claim to be GD Anastasia.



AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

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Re: What about...?
« Reply #39 on: August 23, 2005, 12:03:07 PM »
Quote

...[in part]...

 AA doesn't even look enough like her to make somebody go 'oh look there's AN!" If the suggestion is made, some will see it because they are thinking of it, or they want to, but nobody would just say it was her out of the clear blue sky.


Annie, you have told us many times that you once believed AA as GD Anastasia.  During that period in your life,  you must have thought AA did look like GD Anastasia.   So,  why wouldn't people back in 1918 or people, now, think as you once did?  

And,  I think it's a good question.  Why would Lt. Colonel Hassenstein think the woman in the cart was GD Anastasia.  Could it have been something he had been told by his superiors in the German Intelligence who were at that time in the Ukraine?

AGRBear

PS  I'd, also, like to hear your answer to Rachel's post.

Quote
Hi Annie

I was just wondering what your theory was as to how if AA was FS how could she speak Russian and English when under sedation (souce: Kurth). If FS was only known to speak Geramn and a little Polish?

Thanks

Rachael


Oh, and don't forget,  FS didn't speak High German which AA spoke from the very time she was pulled out of the canal.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Annie

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Re: What about...?
« Reply #40 on: August 23, 2005, 12:56:47 PM »
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Annie, you have told us many times that you once believed AA as GD Anastasia.  During that period in your life,  you must have thought AA did look like GD Anastasia.   So,  why wouldn't people back in 1918 or people, now, think as you once did?  

  


Like I said, blinded by wishful thinking. I wanted it to be her SO bad, as some of you likely do. But now I look back and compare the features, and there really is no comparsion! Also, in the past I had not considered that the emergence of AA was less than 2 years after Ekaterinburg, An would not have changed much. The lips and mouth are completely too big and thick on AA, and the bone structure is all wrong. She looks more like Tatiana, that's why when I found out that was who she was originally said to be, I was like, oooooh, that makes sense, then she switched because of the height. It got dumber and dumber as I re examined everything, and I could see how the whole charade could come about. But I still want to know who and how helped her pull this off, and was she in on it or insane?

Offline Annie

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Re: What about...?
« Reply #41 on: August 23, 2005, 12:58:41 PM »
Quote
Hi Annie

I was just wondering what your theory was as to how if AA was FS how could she speak Russian and English when under sedation (souce: Kurth). If FS was only known to speak Geramn and a little Polish?

Thanks

Rachael


The languages don't hold a lot of beans for me, because all the reports are contradictory and he said she said, this guy says she didn't speak this, that woman said she did, well, we will never know for sure, so it's no kind of proof or evidence to use. I say this for BOTH sides! I also question the person who was against AA who said she spoke Polish in church. NONE of the language stuff is valid to me because there are too  many confliciting reports on both sides, and there is NO way to prove it.

Offline Annie

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Re: What about...?
« Reply #42 on: August 23, 2005, 01:03:26 PM »
Quote
In light of what we know now...that AA was NOT AN...!!!!!("NOT")!!!!!...that means ..."is a negative"....Are we on the same level of understanding....?...Erm....maybe not....

"AA was NOT AN...and most likely WAS FS"......(Gad....I need to have this tatooed on my forehead)....All the amazing stories of bloodied women in carts in the middle of no-where being recognized by German officers who'd likely never met her....are pure bunk...Harlequin Romances aside....

I now know how telephone soliciters make their millions.... ::)


Well, yeah, that saves me a lot of trying to explain.

And for those who still buy the cart story as possible, remember this wasn't an equipped army traveling together on open roads with supplies, this was a half dead girl with no food or medical care on back roads with no supplies, through a year and a half of mostly hard winter. It is RIDICULOUS! No surgery, no way to stop the blood, and most of all INFECTION, no antibiotics, no anticeptics, no stitches, no food, no shelter, being jostled constantly, it's completely in the realm of scifi. And her supposed to have been pregnant and the baby ended up living, oh come on!
I would believe the Enterprise would land in my yard before I would buy that! Also when I used to believe in her I did not know the details and length of the trip and the conditions. I was more a romatic than a historian.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Annie »

Offline Rachael89

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Re: What about...?
« Reply #43 on: August 23, 2005, 01:15:27 PM »
Annie

If you don't mind me saying AA never once claimed to be Tatiana people just assumed she was Tatiana.

This is a very common mistake that has a simple explanation.


Best

Rachael
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Offline Annie

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Re: What about...?
« Reply #44 on: August 23, 2005, 02:20:04 PM »
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Annie

If you don't mind me saying AA never once claimed to be Tatiana people just assumed she was Tatiana.

This is a very common mistake that has a simple explanation.


Best

Rachael


She never claimed to be ANYBODY until a fellow patient, showing her a magazine photo of Tatiana, told her she thought that must be her. Since she either didn't remember or didn't admit her real identity, the lady was guessing. The lady was interested in the Romanovs and had several magazines with their pictures under her bed.

Once this got out, people came to see this mysterious girl with amnesia who had been pulled from the canal, and who resembled a GD of Russia who had been killed. Baroness Sophie Buxhoevedon, a close friend of Alexandra's, said the moment she came in the room 'she's too short to be Tatiana.' This is TRUE, it happened.

At that point, her supporters claim she was given a piece of paper with the names of OTMA on it and crossed out all but Anastasia. However, it is an important detail to note that Anastasia was the ONLY one who shared her height, so if she knew the heights (and remember the other patient was  Romanov fan) of course she would choose her!

I do wonder what would have become of Fransizka had the other patient not had the Romanov pictures and given her the idea. She may have died in obscurity, not the famous woman she is today as AA. Think about that, the only reason her claim ever started was because an insane woman showed her a picture! She never had any 'memories' or anything else before that. Doesn't that make you think?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Annie »