Author Topic: Carlist pretenders to the Spanish throne and their wives  (Read 44342 times)

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Offline cimbrio

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Re: Carlist pretenders to the Spanish throne and their wives
« Reply #15 on: August 24, 2005, 08:59:27 AM »
Hmmm.. well, if he wants to be the Carlist claimant, so be it, much good may it do him....

Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: Carlist pretenders to the Spanish throne and their wives
« Reply #16 on: August 24, 2005, 09:01:49 AM »
It's all a moot point, of course - just like the Jacobite claimants to the British throne . . . it's an empty title . . .
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Offline trentk80

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Re: Carlist pretenders to the Spanish throne and their wives
« Reply #17 on: August 24, 2005, 02:52:15 PM »
Umigon, do you know if Queen Maria Isabel of the Two Sicilies supported Isabella II or the Carlists?
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Offline umigon

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Re: Carlist pretenders to the Spanish throne and their wives
« Reply #18 on: August 24, 2005, 04:54:24 PM »


Well, Maria Isabel always was more a liberal than an absolutist, so her support was for her grandaughter Isabel II rather than for her brother Carlos Marķa Isidro.

But Marķa Isabel had no influence, she was Queen Mother when all the Carlist issue started and she was very busy with her official lover, Eduard von Schmuckher, her other lovers and her bastard, Enrico von Schmuckher.

She never had political ambitions so supporting her grandaughter instead of her brother was more a familiar issue rather than defending some type of political ideals!
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Offline trentk80

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Re: Carlist pretenders to the Spanish throne and their wives
« Reply #19 on: August 24, 2005, 06:07:30 PM »
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Well, Maria Isabel always was more a liberal than an absolutist, so her support was for her grandaughter Isabel II rather than for her brother Carlos Marķa Isidro.

But Marķa Isabel had no influence, she was Queen Mother when all the Carlist issue started and she was very busy with her official lover, Eduard von Schmuckher, her other lovers and her bastard, Enrico von Schmuckher.

She never had political ambitions so supporting her grandaughter instead of her brother was more a familiar issue rather than defending some type of political ideals!


Thanks, Umigon. I didn't know Queen Maria Isabel had lovers and a bastard son. Were all of her children by King Francis really by him?
Ladran los perros a la Luna, y ella con majestuoso desprecio prosigue el curso de su viaje.

Offline Marc

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Re: Carlist pretenders to the Spanish throne and their wives
« Reply #20 on: August 24, 2005, 08:31:07 PM »
Great pictures!Are there some more colour portraits of Savoy Queen or other ''Queens'' such as Bertha von Rohan for example?

Offline umigon

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Re: Carlist pretenders to the Spanish throne and their wives
« Reply #21 on: August 25, 2005, 05:36:27 AM »
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Thanks, Umigon. I didn't know Queen Maria Isabel had lovers and a bastard son. Were all of her children by King Francis really by him?



In fact, yes, they were. While married to Francesco, Marķa Isabel was a faithful and loving wife. It was after his death that her libido went mad! In 1833 she gave birth to her bastard, Enrico, and in 1839 her son, fed up of her scandals, married her off to Francesco del Balzo, an Italian noble. Under this new marriage with a man 16 years her junior, Marķa Isabel became again the peaceful and loyal wife that she had been to her first Francesco!
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Offline trentk80

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Re: Carlist pretenders to the Spanish throne and their wives
« Reply #22 on: August 25, 2005, 12:22:24 PM »
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In fact, yes, they were. While married to Francesco, Marķa Isabel was a faithful and loving wife. It was after his death that her libido went mad! In 1833 she gave birth to her bastard, Enrico, and in 1839 her son, fed up of her scandals, married her off to Francesco del Balzo, an Italian noble. Under this new marriage with a man 16 years her junior, Marķa Isabel became again the peaceful and loyal wife that she had been to her first Francesco!


Thanks again, Umigon. Another question: what was her relationship with her parents-in-law, King Ferdinand and Queen Maria Carolina?
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Offline umigon

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Re: Carlist pretenders to the Spanish throne and their wives
« Reply #23 on: August 26, 2005, 08:20:08 AM »
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Thanks again, Umigon. Another question: what was her relationship with her parents-in-law, King Ferdinand and Queen Maria Carolina?



Well, I don't think her relationship with Ferdinando was a bad one, he was quite easy to treat although he sometimes had violent fits of rage, but I don't think he got on badly with lovely Marķa Isabel.

Her mother-in-law was horrified when Francesco wanted to marry her and stated that she didn't want 'the little bastard' having her son's legitimate children! Then, when Isabel arrived in Naples, Marķa Carolina loved her very much and once wrote when she was expecting her first child (future infanta Luisa Carlota):

' My daughter -in-law- is a generous and loving young lady, it is not her fault she was conceived by Crime (she refered to Godoy, to whom many attribute the fatherhood of Marķa Isabel and Francisco de Paula, although I don't think so...) and Evilness (she refered to Queen Maria Luisa)'
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Offline trentk80

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Re: Carlist pretenders to the Spanish throne and their wives
« Reply #24 on: August 26, 2005, 10:57:58 AM »
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Her mother-in-law was horrified when Francesco wanted to marry her and stated that she didn't want 'the little bastard' having her son's legitimate children! Then, when Isabel arrived in Naples, Marķa Carolina loved her very much and once wrote when she was expecting her first child (future infanta Luisa Carlota):

' My daughter -in-law- is a generous and loving young lady, it is not her fault she was conceived by Crime (she refered to Godoy, to whom many attribute the fatherhood of Marķa Isabel and Francisco de Paula, although I don't think so...) and Evilness (she refered to Queen Maria Luisa)'


Thanks, Umigon. So it's true that Maria Carolina and Maria Luisa hated each other as it was stated in another thread, right? Why? Did they ever meet in person?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by trentk80 »
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Offline umigon

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Re: Carlist pretenders to the Spanish throne and their wives
« Reply #25 on: August 26, 2005, 02:37:44 PM »
Yes,it came out, as you said, in another thread, and it is true, they hated each other.

I have no documentation at hand so I may be wrong, but I think Marķa Luisa and Marķa Carolina never met each other. Marķa Luisa lived in Spain between 1765 and 1808. She never traveled to other country in those years, not until she went to Bayonne with the rest of the Royal Family.

And until 1765 Marķa Carolina hadn't yet set foot out of Austria. Marķa Luisa lived in France during the Spanish War of Independence (1808-1813) and then moved to Italy. Carlos IV and Marķa Luisa spent much time in Naples with Carlos's brother King Ferdinando and all of his family (in which Marķa Isabel was included). But this was not until 1816, when Ferdinando regained the throne as Ferdinando I of the Two Sicilies. By then Marķa Carolina had been dead and buried for two years. So I don't think they ever met in person.

However Marķa Luisa also disliked Ferdinando! And he hated her also! What a loving family picture!
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Offline trentk80

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Re: Carlist pretenders to the Spanish throne and their wives
« Reply #26 on: August 26, 2005, 09:13:56 PM »
Thanks, Umigon. Perhaps they hated each other for political matters... other than that, I think it's hard to hate someone you've never met in person!  However, they could have met during the festivities of the marriage of Maria Carolina's brother Joseph and Maria Luisa's sister Isabella in 1760, though I'm not sure.  
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Offline umigon

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Re: Carlist pretenders to the Spanish throne and their wives
« Reply #27 on: August 29, 2005, 09:17:18 AM »
It could be, but I don't think so. I mean, when royals married back there, the family of the princess celebrated an ausent wedding between her and a man sent by the groom to represent him.

Then the princess was sent to her 'husband's' home, where she contracted a serious marriage. But in this particular case I don't know if it was done this way or if the families met each other. In which case Luisa and Carolina would have probably met (aged 8 ) in person. Still, at first they were not enemies. Carolina's second daughter was called Luisa to honour the Queen of Spain. But as years passed by and Carolina had more and more influence over her husband, Marķa Luisa srarted to hate her. When Carolina dismissed the ministers put in Naples by Carlos III (Marķa Luisa's father-in-law) the two Queens (the persons who would really reign, by dominating their husbands) hated each other with all their heart!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by umigon »
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Offline trentk80

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Re: Carlist pretenders to the Spanish throne and their wives
« Reply #28 on: November 23, 2005, 09:29:57 PM »
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4. Beatriz de Habsburgo-Lorena (1824-1906), daughter of Francis IV of Modena and Maria Beatrice of Savoy, she married Juan III in 1847.




Does anyone have any more information on her?
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Offline cimbrio

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Re: Carlist pretenders to the Spanish throne and their wives
« Reply #29 on: January 04, 2006, 08:15:37 AM »
I'd also like to know more of Beatrice of Habsburg-Este... and the only portrait I've ever seen of her is the one that's been posted.

Here's a photo of Maria Carolina of the Two-Sicilies, 1820-1861
http://geneweb.inria.fr/roglo?lang=es;m=IMH;d=1070463088;i=23649;k=/carolina.1.di_borbone

and her brother-in-law Fernando, who infected her and his brother (her husband) with smallpox. The three died within a very small span of time.