Author Topic: Investigators: Who Were They & Their Findings  (Read 19450 times)

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Offline AGRBear

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Investigators: Who Were They & Their Findings
« on: August 26, 2005, 11:55:14 AM »
We often times read about the Whites and their investigation into the execution of Nicholas II, his family, and the others. But what do we know about them? Who were they? Where did they come from? Did they have any experience in investigations? Who were the first investigators? Can you name all of those involved from the first to the most recent? What did they report? Where can we find their informaton? All these questions are important to known when dealing with the subject of the invesigation into the bodies found in the mass grave in Pig's Meadow.

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« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

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Offline AGRBear

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Investigators: Who Were They & Their Findingsjusti
« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2005, 11:59:52 AM »
Start with the Known List [underconstruction and looking for data]:

#The Czechs under Gen. Rudolph Gajda, who was part of Kolchak's armies, entered Ekaterinburg first.

#Alexander Nametkin - Was investigator for the local [Ekaterinburg] justice dept.; appointed Examining Magistrate for Important Cases

#Alexander Kutuzov- Ekaterinburg assistant public prosecutor who named Sergeyev to his post.

#Judge Ivan Sergeyev - "Judge of the Investigation of Special Importance" came into the case about Nov. 1918 ; released [fired] 23 Jan 1919

# Nikolai Sokolov - Resume Sergeyev's position on or about 23 Jan 1919 [Feb 1919. See post #7 below]

#Supreme Commander of the Whites - General Mikhail Diterikhs
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline etonexile

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Re: Investigators: Who Were They & Their Findi
« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2005, 12:02:24 PM »
Shouldn't imagine that those first "White" chaps in E-burg after the executions were trained forensic types.....Just loyal Russian soldiers....for their trouble....

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Investigators: Who Were They & Their Findi
« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2005, 12:13:25 PM »
I think some were from various courts and some did have experience but I do not remember at this time which ones or where they were from...

Your question was one I was asking myself just before starting this thread.

If you find anything, please let me know.

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« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Investigators: Who Were They & Their Findi
« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2005, 12:28:10 PM »
Summers and Mangold, THE FILE ON THE TSAR p. 57:

>>In the first crucial months after the disappearance of the Romanovs it was open season for investigators at Ekaterinburg. Every train into town seemed to bring one more determne amateur detective. Apart from the various White teams, foreigners arrived to conduct their own private hunts; and there were royal envoys, sent by relativies of the imperial family, like the tsar'smother, then still ...in Russia, and....King George V.... There was no central authority to conyrol this battalion of investigators, each working to his own brief, each jealous of his own discovereies, each anxious to prove his ability.

In Ekaternburg...the White military who took the first steps in setting up an investigation, mainly because civilian justice was still disorganiized after the recent fighting. The local commandant set up a commision comprising in part men from the St. Petersurg Militiary Academy -- Russia's Sandhurst-- which had been transfered to the town by the Communists. Many of its officers and survived, and remained in Ekaterinburg to fight with the Whites. The army also order it's Criminal Investigation Divison to pursue separate enquiries. Apart from these two sets of investigators, and perhaps to give its Officers' Commission the stamp of democracy, the army asked the local justice departemtn to provide a court investigator to work longside the military. The Ekaterinburg prosecutor was out of town but his deputy quickly appointed Alexander Nametkin, Examining Magisrate for Important Cases. Then a few days<< p. 58 >>later when the city prosecutor returned, he decided there should be a completely separate civilian enquiry, and Nametkin was ordered to run it. So there were in effect three separate sets of investigators working at once.<<

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« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Investigators: Who Were They & Their Findi
« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2005, 12:38:38 PM »
Quote
The Czechs under Gen. Rudolph Gajda, who was part of Kolchak's armies, entered Ekaterinburg first.



It was under Gajda that an independent investigation of what happen to Nicholas II and the others begain. Alexander Kirsta was the one who's collection of testimonies is overlooked by Sokolov.

June 1919 Whites Commander-in-Chief in the Urals Gajda was relieved of duty and departed for the East.

Diterkhs replaced Gajda.

 Even though Dieterkh's ban Kirsta's continued work, we know Kirsta continued to collect evidence. His dossier wasn't discovered until 1975...

AGRBear

"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

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Re: Investigators: Who Were They & Their Findi
« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2005, 04:13:20 PM »
Who was Lieutenant Andrei Sheremetevsky? He was the one who

>>...reported to the commander of the 8th Mlitary District in the suburbs of the city. He carried with him a disquieting asortment of articles--A Maltese cross with emerals....<<

>>The lieutenant told a strange story. He said he had been hiding out in the woods...near the village of Koptyaki....<<

as found on p. 65 Summers and Mangold THE FILE ON THE TSAR.

Over on p. 66:

He told the Whites about the Reds in the woods...

>>30 July, he guided an offical inspection party to the Four Brothers<<

Was his testimony taken? There must have been because Radzinsky's quote him in his book THE LAST TSAR pps. 61-62

I really don't find much else about this Lieutenant.

On p. 346 in the FATE OF THE ROMANOVS by King and Wilson, we are told that he was part of the Whites.

Was he part of Count Nicholas Sheremetiev family? I don't know.

Was he part of Madame, nee Scheremeteff [Scheremetev] , Dehn's family? I don't know

THE PLOTS TO RESCUE THE TSAR by Shay McNeal:

>>Sheremetevsky soon disappeared, as quickly and as mysteriously as he had come on the scene. He was never clearly identified nor was it ever confired that he was a White officer.<<

p. 253:
>>..The S-y mentioned..could have been the mysterious Sheremetevsky, who had bee the Tsar's aide-de-camp and had married a Dehn, one of the relatives of Lily Dehn, who was also part of the group led by Anna Vyrubova and Soloviev."

Boris Soloviov/Solovyov/Soloviev was married to Rasptuin's daughter Maria who lived near Tobolsk.

Summers and Mangold tell us on pl 262:

>>History has branded Solovyov as a dangerous triple agent, paid by the Germans to supply information, in league with the Bolsheviks, while posing all the time as a monarchist hero. Loyal oficers traveling to Tobolsk were briefed to contact Solovyov en troute and walked straight into a trap. At least three were captured and shot by the Bolhsevik secret police.<<

Far as we know, he could have been a CHEKA making sure the Whites were lead directly to the Four Brother's Mine? But why? Was there something they didn't want the Whites to go looking elsewhere?

All these characters seem to change their names as often as they did their socks. So, we may not even know his real name. And, we probably never know if he was White, Red or loyal to Nicholas II.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Investigators: Who Were They & Their Findi
« Reply #7 on: March 13, 2006, 11:42:05 AM »
Finally, I have my own copy of the book SOKOLOV INVESTIGATION, Translated with Commentary by John F. O'Conor.

I've never had such a difficult time buying a book. It seems everytime I ordered a copy, the book store would discover the copy had already been sold.

Anyway, I remember the first time I had taken this particular book out of the library back in the 1980s. It was full of information that it was overwhelming.

Yesterday, I sat down and started to read it, again.

p. 114:
>>On February 5 [1919], I was summoned by Admiral Kolchak. He called upon me as investigator of especially important cases for the Omsk Regional Court. He ordered me to acquant myself with the material of the investigation....<<

>>On Feb 7, I received the proposal of the Minister of Justice for the conduct of a prelimiary investigation, and, on the same day accepted from General Dieterichs all reports of the investigation and material evidence.<<

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

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"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Investigators: Who Were They & Their Findi
« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2006, 11:45:00 AM »
Was Sokolov the only person to have used the evidence collected by the Whites?

The first to publish a book was not Sokolov.   In 1920 it was Robert Wilton of the London Times who published a book with "complete" story of the investigation.

Why is this important?  Wilton spent time in Ekaterinburg and did his own investigative work and he was "auhtorized" to use all documents and other items gathered under the various offical investigators.  He even had in his hands all the information Sokolov had.  Added to this he had the "complete text of four depostitions which had bee brought from Omsk by the last Minister of Justice in Admiral Kolchak's government, George Telberg..."  wote O'Connor  p. 5 in his book THE SOKOLOV INVESTIGATION.


AGRBear  
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline bernard_timbal

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Re: Investigators: Who Were They & Their Findi
« Reply #10 on: March 22, 2006, 04:24:14 PM »
Quote
I've never had such a difficult time buying a book.  It seems everytime I ordered a copy, the book store would discover the copy had already been sold.


If you are interested, I have found one year ago my original copy (french) of Sokolov book on a "bouquiniste" in Paris. Somes weeks ago, I see he has other "Sokolov inquiry" available. If you are interested,  I could try to see if other copy are still available !
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by bernard_timbal »

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Re: Investigators: Who Were They & Their Findi
« Reply #11 on: March 22, 2006, 04:26:51 PM »
That would be great!

Thanks.

AGRBear
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

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Re: Investigators: Who Were They & Their Findings
« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2006, 01:33:00 PM »
Gilliard was not an offical investigator, he did, however, help in the investigation. On 5 March 1919 Gilliard told us in a sworn desposition:

p. 23 O'Conor's THE SOKOLOV INVESTIGATION:

>>...at the time I left the house I could ot believe that the Imperial Family had really perished. There was such a small number of bullet holes in the room which I had inspected, that I thought it impossible for everybody to have been executed.<<

This was his first sworn testimony. He change his description of the room in 1921.

>>...The walls and floor showed numberous traces of bullets and bayonet scars. The first glance showed an odious carime had been perpretrated there an that serveral people had been done to death. But who? How?

I became convinced that the Tsar had perished and granting that I could not believe that the Tsarina had survived him.<<

Gilliard would continue to be part of Sokolov's investation, collection of material, etc. up to the point of Sokolov's death, so, he's an important figure and should be mentioned, I think.


AGRBear

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Inok Nikolai

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Re: Investigators: Who Were They & Their Findings
« Reply #13 on: May 24, 2012, 11:08:45 AM »
The Russian Archives are holding a new exhibit in Moscow: "The Death of the Family of Emperor Nicholas II An Investigation That Lasted A Century".

The exhibit will run from May 25 to July 29.

Here is the announcement in Russian:
http://archives.ru/exhibitions/gibel-nikolay-ii_press.shtml

And here is Paul Gilbert's posting in English on the same:
http://www.angelfire.com/pa/ImperialRussian/blog/index.blog/1437079/garf-hosts-exhibition-on-the-death-of-tsar-nicholas-ii-and-his-family/

Oh, how I wish that I could attend it! If anyone from the AP Forum does go, or acquires the catalogue, please let the rest of us know how it was.
инок Николай

Offline Jen_94

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Re: Investigators: Who Were They & Their Findings
« Reply #14 on: May 24, 2012, 04:00:34 PM »
That sounds like a really interesting exhibition to me!