Author Topic: Elizabeth Stuart, the Winter Queen  (Read 17173 times)

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Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: Elizabeth Stuart, the Winter Queen
« Reply #45 on: September 09, 2005, 11:37:11 AM »
Welcome to the forum, palatine.  :)

Elizabeth wasn't the worst mother in the world, but she wasn't the best. And she was certainly extravagant, especially in her younger days. But I think her good points outweigh her bad ones.

Her children, of course, were certainly not saints - sometimes they seemed almost to be trying to upset their mother. Charles Louis, especially . . .
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
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"Men forget, but never forgive; women forgive, but never forget."

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Re: Elizabeth Stuart, the Winter Queen
« Reply #46 on: September 09, 2005, 07:19:24 PM »
Thanks for the welcome.  

I have a certain grim respect for Elizabeth, and I don't that she was the worst mother in the world, but I don't think she was a good parent or guardian either.  At best, she held her children at arm's length, except for Karl-Ludwig, whom she adored.  Elizabeth, who was fighting for Karl-Ludwig and his restoration like a tigress, could not shut her tunnel vision off when she put her pen down for the day and the visitors were gone.  She did not understand what her favoritism was teaching Karl-Ludwig, or what it was doing to the rest of her children.  

In particular, Elizabeth did not understand that when she derided the younger Elizabeth, which she loved to do because she thought her namesake was ugly, she was making a catastrophic mistake.  The younger Elizabeth, who was fighting a terrible battle with depression, had established herself as the caretaker of the younger siblings.  While Elizabeth went to parties and plays or wrote letters, her namesake was nursing her siblings, encouraging them to study, or guarding their morals as best she could.

Additionally, through her brilliant mind, the younger Elizabeth had attracted the attention of many scholars of note, including Rene Descartes.   The younger Elizabeth, who was well aware that she was her mother's favorite target, became a rather grim and serious young woman with a remarkably logical mind, who was, as she put it, surrounded by people who were not very rational.  

The Winter Queen's contemptible behavior towards her namesake meant that some of her children refused to follow their eldest sister's often good advice, and jeered at her with their mother's approval.  Other children backed the younger Elizabeth against their mother and siblings.   The Winter Queen did not realize just how deep the divisions went, divisions she had inspired, or just how far her namesake and her supporters were willing to go if sufficiently provoked.

In time, the younger Elizabeth decided to scotch a scandal and simultaneously display her power to her bully of a mother.  At the younger Elizabeth's nod, Philip killed a man who had boasted of his "bonnes fortunes" with the Winter Queen and Louise.

I can't say that Elizabeth was responsible for everything her children did, including the murder the younger Elizabeth planned, the execution of which Philip bungled, or Karl-Ludwig's bigamy.  I do think she set up some ugly patterns of behavior that had serious ramifications as her children reached adulthood.

As for the port Rupert tried to blockade, it was indeed Kinsale.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by palatine »

Offline bell_the_cat

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Re: Elizabeth Stuart, the Winter Queen
« Reply #47 on: September 10, 2005, 03:44:46 AM »
So Elisabeth Jr. was a mathematician, a protestant abbess and a murderess :o.

I'm interested in Karl Ludwig's marriages. Does anyone know what happened exactly. I know that Liselotte was very fond of her half-sisters. Sher wrote to them up until the end of her life. Many of her funniest and most indiscreet stories are addressed to them.
Never put off until tomorrow what you can put off until the day after tomorrow. (Mark Twain)

Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: Elizabeth Stuart, the Winter Queen
« Reply #48 on: September 10, 2005, 06:11:22 AM »
Charles Louis (or Karl Ludwig, whichever you prefer) married firstly Princess Charlotte of Hesse-Cassel. That marriage produced Karl II of the Palatine, Liselotte and Frederick who died young.

Karl Ludwig's second wife was Maria Luisa von Degenfeld. They had three children - Karl Ludwig, who died aged 30; Karoline Elisabeth, who married the Duke of Leinster and Mortiz, who died in 1701.

I'm afraid that's all I know, and it's not much . .  .  :-/
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
-Sherlock Holmes

"Men forget, but never forgive; women forgive, but never forget."

Offline trentk80

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Re: Elizabeth Stuart, the Winter Queen
« Reply #49 on: September 10, 2005, 02:58:52 PM »
According to Sophie, Charlotte of Hesse-Kassel was hopeless and stupid. When she married Karl Ludwig, it was her own mother, Amelia Elisabeth von Hanau-Muenzenberg, who warned him of Charlotte's foul temper.
Ladran los perros a la Luna, y ella con majestuoso desprecio prosigue el curso de su viaje.

Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: Elizabeth Stuart, the Winter Queen
« Reply #50 on: September 10, 2005, 03:03:02 PM »
Thanks trentk! Where did you hear this?
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
-Sherlock Holmes

"Men forget, but never forgive; women forgive, but never forget."

palatine

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Re: Elizabeth Stuart, the Winter Queen
« Reply #51 on: September 10, 2005, 03:35:10 PM »
I don't think the younger Elizabeth should be judged too harshly for her actions.   By the standards of the day, Epinay had to be killed for his boastful talk, and the killing had to be done by one of the men of the family.  Claiming that he had slept with both women was not something Epinay could apologize for or be forgiven for in that era, and the social stigma was too great to try and let the whole thing blow over, although that was clearly the hope of the Winter Queen.  

Sadly, the only brother who was home was the teenage Philip, who was not a man of the world by anyone's standards, but one of the irrational people in his sister's life.  Elizabeth made do with what she had, and instructed Philip to pick a fight with Epinay on a pretext, a pretext that could give him the opportunity to challenge Epinay on grounds that did not bring the fair names of their mother and sister into it.  A duel would then be fought with socially prominent seconds, and Philip would thus avenge the family's honor without validating Epinay's allegations, since his family could point to the pretext as the cause of the duel.

Young Philip, alas, lost his temper, which is not surprising at his young age.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by palatine »

Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: Elizabeth Stuart, the Winter Queen
« Reply #52 on: September 10, 2005, 05:39:28 PM »
Heehee, I am young, and do not often lose my temper, but when I do, by God!  ;D ;D ;)
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
-Sherlock Holmes

"Men forget, but never forgive; women forgive, but never forget."

Offline bell_the_cat

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Re: Elizabeth Stuart, the Winter Queen
« Reply #53 on: September 12, 2005, 12:07:52 PM »
In the Maria Kroll book of Liselotte's letters her half-sister is named as the Raugravine Louise. This lady survived her (Liselotte's last letter is to her ). Raugrave and Raugravine were special titles invented for the children of Karl Ludwig's second marriage.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by bell_the_cat »
Never put off until tomorrow what you can put off until the day after tomorrow. (Mark Twain)

Offline bell_the_cat

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Re: Elizabeth Stuart, the Winter Queen
« Reply #54 on: September 12, 2005, 12:15:29 PM »
Here they are:

1. Raugraf Karl Ludwig zu Pfalz (15-Jan-1658-1688)
2. Raugräfin Karoline Elisabeth zu Pfalz (29Dez-1659-1696) oo 1683: Meinhard, Graf v.Schomberg, Herzog v.Leinster (-1719)
3. Raugräfin Louise zu Pfalz (26-Jan-1661-1733)
4. Raugraf Ludwig zu Pfalz (19-Feb-1662-1662)
5. Raugräfin Amalia Elisabeth zu Pfalz (1-Apr-1663-1709)
6. Raugraf Georg Ludwig zu Pfalz (30-Mar-1664-1665)
7. Raugräfin Friederike zu Pfalz (7-Jul-1665-1674)
8. Raugraf Friedrich Wilhelm zu Pfalz (?-Nov-1666-1667)
9. Raugraf Karl Eduard zu Pfalz (19-Mai-1668-1690)
10. Raugräfin Sophia zu Pfalz (19-Jul-1669-1669)
11. Raugraf Karl Moritz zu Pfalz (9-Jan-1671-1702)
12. Raugraf Karl August zu Pfalz (?-Okt-1672-1691)
13. Raugraf Karl Kasimir zu Pfalz (22-Apr-1675-1691)

Liselotte wrote to Amalia Elisabeth as well, she was very upset when she died.

Karl Ludwig married a third time and had a son, but I don't think he was a Raugrave.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by bell_the_cat »
Never put off until tomorrow what you can put off until the day after tomorrow. (Mark Twain)

Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: Elizabeth Stuart, the Winter Queen
« Reply #55 on: September 12, 2005, 01:39:46 PM »
Thanks bell!  :D What a strange title, a bit like 'Landgrave'. How strange it was made especially for Carl Ludwig's children . . .
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
-Sherlock Holmes

"Men forget, but never forgive; women forgive, but never forget."

Offline ChristineM

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Re: Elizabeth Stuart, the Winter Queen
« Reply #56 on: September 13, 2005, 05:47:14 AM »
You learn something every day - never heard of the title 'Raugraf', but it did catch my imagination.

According to Wikipedia - a Raugraf or Raugrave only  held jurisidiction of waste ground and uninhabited districts.   The title - since 1667 - was used exclusively by the children of the Elector Palatine Karl I's bigamous second marriage and Karl's wife, Marie Louise.

tsaria
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by tsaria »

Offline trentk80

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Re: Elizabeth Stuart, the Winter Queen
« Reply #57 on: September 15, 2005, 09:31:40 PM »
Quote
Thanks trentk! Where did you hear this?


Sorry for the delay, Prince. I read it in a website, but right now I don't remember which one.  :-/
Ladran los perros a la Luna, y ella con majestuoso desprecio prosigue el curso de su viaje.

Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: Elizabeth Stuart, the Winter Queen
« Reply #58 on: September 16, 2005, 11:54:42 AM »
Oh, don't worry - I have an awful memory too . . .  ::)
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
-Sherlock Holmes

"Men forget, but never forgive; women forgive, but never forget."

Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: Elizabeth Stuart, the Winter Queen
« Reply #59 on: September 28, 2005, 04:05:35 PM »
I just found this pic, which I have never seen before, listed as 'The Princess Royal, daughter of James I'. It must be Elizabeth, though she was never Princess Royal.

"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
-Sherlock Holmes

"Men forget, but never forgive; women forgive, but never forget."