Author Topic: Soviet Atrocities and the Killing of Disabled and Innocent Children  (Read 71058 times)

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Offline Nicolay

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Re: Soviet Atrocities
« Reply #195 on: December 21, 2007, 04:56:11 AM »
One of my more baffling experiences as a graduate student was encountering well-educated Americans who knew almost everything about the Holocaust but absolutely nothing about Soviet atrocities under Stalin. I recall one good, very intelligent and well-read friend who was astonished to learn that some 10-15 million peasants died during collectivization and the terror-famine that followed, another five million or so people under the Great Terror. Nor had she ever heard of the Communist atrocities under Mao in China Ė 30 million dead during the Great Leap Forward, another 5-10 million killed during the Cultural Revolution. Before she met me (a fellow liberal Democrat!) she believed that all Communist atrocities, with the exception of those in Cambodia under the Khmer Rouge, were solely the invention of anti-Communist propaganda propogated by neo-McCarthyites.

Why arenít Soviet and Maoist atrocities better known in the West? Why havenít they gripped the public imagination to the extent that the Holocaust has? After all, Stalin and Mao taken together (or even taken separately!) killed far more human beings than Hitler ever did. Why arenít their crimes better publicized? Is there something in the Communist ideology itself that makes atrocities committed in its name somehow less "atrocious" than other crimes against humanity? Do you think it is justified or fair to teach students about Nazi atrocities in public schools without teaching about Communist atrocities at the same time? Or do you think the situation in Western schools has changed since I was a graduate student some fifteen years ago? 


http://day.zp.ua/core/data/upimages/deti-dead-upa-horror.jpg

http://vlasti.net/index.php?Screen=news&id=215820

http://www.anti-orange-ua.com.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1094&postdays=0&postorder=asc&&start=40

http://katynbooks.narod.ru/amtliches/amtliches_material.html



and many more
if you search you find many more from Latvia to Vladivostock!
« Last Edit: December 21, 2007, 05:01:17 AM by Nicolay »

Offline amelia

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Re: Soviet Atrocities
« Reply #196 on: December 21, 2007, 08:41:00 AM »
I  just finished reading a new book by Orlando Figes, The Whisperers - private life in Stalin 's Russia. Talking about atrocities..... It is very well written, with interviews etc. of people who suffered under Stalin and were sent to the Gulags, and the families were desintegrated. I highly reccomend this book.

Amelia

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Soviet Atrocities
« Reply #197 on: December 22, 2007, 10:21:06 AM »

http://day.zp.ua/core/data/upimages/deti-dead-upa-horror.jpg

...[in part]....

and many more
if you search you find many more from Latvia to Vladivostock!

Is this a newspaper in Russia which carried the above photo?  http://day.zp.ua/

Do you know anything more about this photo?  Was it taken in a Russian camp?  Was this in Stalin's time?

AGRBear
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Offline Nicolay

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Re: Soviet Atrocities
« Reply #198 on: December 22, 2007, 02:41:46 PM »
Yes
this was posted by Russian newspapers and forums,

AS FAR AS I UNDERSTAND IT (Lack of RUSSIAN)
and hope that somebody with better Russian can correct me
if I am wrong!

That these were the UPA (Ukraine) fighters.

These are/were street signs left behind in Poland by those fighters,
and supposedly there were a lot of them.

(The story is:
that these fighters are celebrated today as freedom fighters)

I have seen similar articles about the supposedly deportations of Latvians to Siberia,
but those deported Latvians didn't get further than a hole in the local forest!
(It was just as graphic as the UPA posts)
« Last Edit: December 22, 2007, 02:44:57 PM by Nicolay »

Offline Nicolay

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Re: Soviet Atrocities
« Reply #199 on: December 23, 2007, 03:18:56 AM »
I want to state my thoughts to all this!

My family lost family and dear friends to this regime
as well as their homes and everything they worked very hard for in over 300 years!
but yet I harbor no ill feelings or carry any anger in my heart towards any of them,
they were just as mislead and hurt as anybody else.

This was devastating to the once that died
as well as the once that fled
and the once that survived
inclusive the once that participated in it!

Because the mental burden of the once that participated
must be extraordinarily hard and tremendously painful to carry!

All we can do is learn out of it,
but to be able to learn we must gain the knowledge!

Without knowledge of these events,
it will happen again!
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« Last Edit: December 23, 2007, 03:25:54 AM by Nicolay »

Offline klava1985

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Re: Soviet Atrocities
« Reply #200 on: January 10, 2008, 03:11:21 PM »
Not to be glib, but isn't this the way of all revolutions?

My ancestors suffered badly during and following the American Revolution; many of them fled to Canada. They owned a great deal of the land in Connecticut and New York state and all of it was lost. Lives as well. So it goes.

General Putnam was notorious for his brutal discipline both with his troops and in the villages and towns where they were billetted. Many of the continental army were forcibly conscripted and could not have cared less about the outcome of the war.

I'm not saying it was a bad as the Soviet catastrophe by any means. But revolutions are hard on those who live through them. Which is why they don't happen that often.

Offline Nicolay

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Re: Soviet Atrocities
« Reply #201 on: January 10, 2008, 03:32:43 PM »
Not to be glib, but isn't this the way of all revolutions?
..........................................................................   .....   ..........
 Which is why they don't happen that often.
Yes you are right and no you are not glib
:)

But you are wrong in saying that they do not happen that often,
it is till today an ongoing story in human history!

Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: Soviet Atrocities
« Reply #202 on: January 10, 2008, 04:51:01 PM »
Not to be glib, but isn't this the way of all revolutions?

My ancestors suffered badly during and following the American Revolution; many of them fled to Canada. They owned a great deal of the land in Connecticut and New York state and all of it was lost. Lives as well. So it goes.

General Putnam was notorious for his brutal discipline both with his troops and in the villages and towns where they were billetted. Many of the continental army were forcibly conscripted and could not have cared less about the outcome of the war.

I'm not saying it was a bad as the Soviet catastrophe by any means. But revolutions are hard on those who live through them. Which is why they don't happen that often.

The Soviet Union began with revolution, but the totalitarian nature of it and other regimes in the 20th century was previously unknown in previous annuls of recorded history. Of course people suffer in revolutions, but that is completely beside the point.

The government which followed the collapsed Tsarist state and its successor Provisional government practiced an intense hatred and oppression against its own people. It destroyed all kinds of resources and did untold environmental damage. It murdered tens of millions of people, the number of which will never be known. The Aral Sea has virtually disappeared due to Soviet contempt for the environment. It will take many generations for the former Soviet Union to recover from the hateful policies of its state.

And this we could not say was due solely to revolution.

Offline dmitri

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Re: Soviet Atrocities
« Reply #203 on: January 12, 2008, 12:01:45 AM »
I think it is all too easy to knock the Soviet Union. There were many good things achieved during that particular regime as well. Gorbachev actually ceased the war in Afghanistan. He was undermined from within. The successor state is hardly perfect. There were a great many people in Russia who starved to death under Yeltsin. In fact he a complete disaster. Remember his turning the tanks on the elected Parliament simply because they did not agree with him? He was also responsible for the ongoing war in Chechyna. Putin is far from perfect either. Democracy hardly flourishes in Russia today although corruption and the mafia do very handsomely. It is perhaps not particularly wise to make sweeping statements about a period of history. No regime is perfect and the Russian Empire was extremely backward. The Soviet regime dragged the former Russian Empire kicking and screaming into the 20th century. General levels of public health, housing and education actually improved under the Soviet Union. Of course millions did die and environmental problems happened. They also have happened elsewhere. The nuclear testing in the Nevada desert is a classic example. Social upheavel can be extremely brutal. Nobody can forget the terrible things that happened under the Soviet Union. Dreadful things happened for many, many decades in Central and Southern America and remain largely unreported. Before an important meeting of leaders in Rio de Janiero, street children were machine gunned to rid the city of their presence. We live in a world of incredible contradiction. Sadly mankind never learns from the mistakes of the past.   

Offline dmitri

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Re: Soviet Atrocities
« Reply #204 on: January 12, 2008, 12:08:04 AM »
It should also be pointed out the enormous worked carried out during the Soviet Union of rebuilding the social fabric after the massive destruction caused by the German forces during world war two. Most of the Tsarist Palaces and other areas of the Soviet Union were destroyed by what can only be described as massive cases of brutal barbarian vandalism not seen in any such scale previously. Any visitor to St.Petersburg and Moscow can only admire the incredible resilience of the people in lovingly restoring and rebuilding their shattered country. Preservation of culture such as theatre, ballet and opera were plus art collections was a massive achievement during the Soviet Union. Allowing millions to experience such things that previously they were denied was a magnificent achievement. 

Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: Soviet Atrocities
« Reply #205 on: January 13, 2008, 12:54:47 AM »
We simply see this differently, dmitri.

I consider the Soviet Union to be a mostly criminal regime which waged war on its own citizenry and was a force for destruction of everything good and decent in Russia. Does this mean that no good came during this period? Of course not. It's just that any positive came about accidentally, because the Bolsheviks, unlike the tsars, hated Russia and hated the people of Russia.

They were so hateful that the advancing Germans in WWII could have taken the Ukraine without a shot - except Hilter's Nazis hated Slavs, so the poor Ukrainians were caught between the hateful Nazis and hateful Bolsheviks.

Offline Zvezda

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Re: Soviet Atrocities
« Reply #206 on: February 06, 2008, 06:24:08 PM »
Quote
I recall one good, very intelligent and well-read friend who was astonished to learn that some 10-15 million peasants died during collectivization and the terror-famine that followed, another five million or so people under the Great Terror.


Concerning the famine, the narrative that the Russian Government imposed a famine has no foundation. The theory that the famine resulted from the policies of the Russian Government is equally tenuous. Groundbreaking research by Professor Mark Tauger demonstrates that the famine resulted exclusively due to a series of poor harvests in 1931 and 1932 caused to a large extent by natural disasters and poor weather. The death toll of the famine amounted to about 2 to 3 million in the regions of Ukraine, the Volga, and the Northern Caucasus, as the declassified Russian archives demonstrate.
http://www.as.wvu.edu/history/Faculty/Tauger/Tauger,%20Natural%20Disaster%20and%20Human%20Actions.pdf
http://www2.warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/economics/staff/faculty/harrison/archive/hunger/

Regarding the kulaks, there was no intent to harm them, but only to engage them in more productive parts of the economy. This campaign of resettlement was non-violent, as the kulaks were merely transferred to the Urals and Turkestan where they would work in the timber, fishing, and gold industries. Concerning kulak children, they received rights equal to the children of all citizens. The school network in the kulak settlements included some 200,000 students and 8000 teachers. In 1938, the children of ex-kulaks gained the right, at age sixteen, to leave their settlement in order to work or attend an institution of education. During the war, the ex-kulaks were rehabilitated: in January 1945, the ex-kulaks were granted all rights of Russian citizens. By the early 1950s, the kulaks had effectively assimilated into Russian society. Although some 390,000 ex-kulaks died between 1932-40 in their places of settlement, this statistic is devoid of context and does not consider certain important factors.

About 250,000 occurred during the famine of 1932-33 when such consequences could not have been averted as Russia as a whole was faced with a severe famine caused by natural disasters. Of the remaining 140,000 kulak deaths, the Government again cannot be held responsible because there will always be deaths due to natural causes in a given population. In the kulak settlements the death rate in the period 1935-40 was not any different from the Russian population as a whole. While the Russian crude death rate per 1000 people was 17.5 in 1939, that of the kulaks was 17.03. This demonstrates that the conditions of the kulaks were on par with the rest of Russia. It is undeniable that Russia experienced unprecedented economic and social progress in the 1930s. The kulak settlements were no exception. There was no intent to harm the kulaks, but only to concentrate them in a productive area of the national economy and to assimilate them into the rest of Russia.

Despite claims to the contrary, it is irrefutable that there was a formidable kulak class in Russia following the abolition of serfdom. After the shift to the new economic policy in 1921, kulak farming revived. By 1927 kulak farms numbered just over 1 million, or about 5 percent of the total number of farming units. Because they possessed significant means of production and used usurious methods, they continued to exploit the rural poor.

Quote
another five million or so people under the Great Terror.

Scholars have concluded through research in the archives that the number of death sentences during the Yezhovschina was about 500,000 or so. It should be taken into consideration that tens of thousands of members from the State and Party had been unjustly persecuted during this campaign. Hence, the Yezhovschina proportionately affected Communists far more than most other groups. About one-third of those sentenced to death were from diaspora nationalities including the Poles, Germans, Finns, Greeks, Bulgars, and others. In this sense, the Yezhovschina was to a large extent directed against foreigners in the context of increasing threats from Germany, Japan, Poland, and Finland. This suspicion of foreigners had more to do with traditional Russian xenophobia rather than the teachings of Marxism-Leninism.

Stalin and the members of the Politbureau cannot be held responsible for things getting out of hand throughout the country because the Central Government did not have firm control of the entire country. Out of the 500 thousand or so death sentences, Stalin and members of the Politbureau signed the names of about 45,000. The remainder was the result of the overzealous conduct of opportunistic officials trying to get rid of their rivals. In Turkmenia, the Yezhovschina was especially severe not because of Stalin but because of the excesses carried out by the local officials who were later reprimanded. Interestingly, many of those responsible for the Purge, including Yezhov and his deputy Frinovsky, had themselves been executed. Starting in the mid 1950s the Soviet Government moved to rehabilitate those that had been unjustly punished, including Tukhachevsky, Egorov, Bliukher, etc and ending with Bukharin and Zinoviev in 1988.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2008, 06:40:13 PM by Zvezda »

Offline Zvezda

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Re: Soviet Atrocities
« Reply #207 on: February 06, 2008, 06:40:32 PM »
Quote
Nor had she ever heard of the Communist atrocities under Mao in China Ė 30 million dead during the Great Leap Forward
Chinese demographic statistics suggest about 14 million died in the famine. No serious historian takes the view that the Chinese Government imposed a famine on the peasantry. The famine in China resulted from two successive years of natural calamities, declining harvests, and to a lesser extent the abrupt termination of Russian technological aid. As a result, grain output dropped from 200 million tons in 1959 to 170 million tons in 1960 to 144 million tons in 1961. Through the system of rationing grain reserves and large purchases of Canadian and Australian wheat, the Chinese Government helped to alleviate the situation. Famine has been a chronic feature of Chinese history. In the first chapter of his book on the famine, Jasper Becker notes that 1,828 major famines were recorded during the years 100BC-1911 AD, that their severity and frequency appeared to have increased over the centuries, and that an 1876 famine in northern China left 15 milion dead, a higher percentage of the population than in 1959-61.
Quote
another 5-10 million killed during the Cultural Revolution.

Most people in China had not even be aware of the Cultural Revolution, for the movement was primarily limited to the major urban areas. The Chinese Central Government in Beijing cannot reasonably be held responsible for the spontaneous excesses that resulted from the Red Guardís lack of discipline, violent factionalism, vandalism, and outright hooliganism. The central authorities exhorted the Red Guard not to use force, ordered them not to interfere with the productive activities of the workers, admonished them for indiscriminate attacks on local and provincial State and Communist Party organizations, and criticized them for fomenting differences among the people. When the situation in the country got out of control, the Peopleís Liberation Army was brought in to restore peace. During the Cultural Revolution, many thousands of innocent State and Communist Party cadres, among them Deng Xiaoping, had been unjustly persecuted by the Red Guard and their leaders. The estimate that hundreds of thousands of people were killed is exaggerated and cannot be verified. When the Gang of Four were prosecuted, they were charged for the persecution of 729,511 people, some 34,8000 of which had died in prison or had committed suicide. When the Cultural Revolution was ended, the Chinese Government proceeded to rehabilitate those that had been unjustly punished, among them former President Liu Shaoqi.

Offline Belochka

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Re: Soviet Atrocities
« Reply #208 on: February 06, 2008, 07:16:27 PM »
... Stalin and the members of the Politbureau cannot be held responsible for things getting out of hand throughout the country because the Central Government did not have firm control of the entire country.

Comrade stalin as the leader was 100% accountable for all the misery and destruction of society that was inflicted by his agents during his regime based on terrorism. Accountability can not be shared.


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Offline amelia

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Re: Soviet Atrocities
« Reply #209 on: February 06, 2008, 08:49:02 PM »
Zvesda,

Have you ever read The Whishesperes? It is a book written by Orlando Figes, with a lot of interviews and research. While reading this book, I had many times tears in my eyes. I can not believe that you are trying to "protect" Stalin, when in my opinion he was far worst than Hitler.

Amelia