Author Topic: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri  (Read 113410 times)

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Offline TampaBay

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Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
« on: September 05, 2005, 01:58:20 PM »
What was the problem here?  

I have read in several places that Ella loved children.  I have read she was very close to Felix & Dimitri both as children and young adults.

Why could she not mother or get on with her ward Marie Pavlovna The Younger?

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« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by TampaBay »
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Offline PrinceEddy1864

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Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2005, 02:48:35 PM »
Three words:

CLASH OF PERSONALITIES.

Sike, perhaps blue can elaborate after all she wrote the book on it.  ;D

From childhood Maria had resented being separated from her father and the fact that Ella and Sergei had basically become her new parents. We all know Ella and Sergei treated Maria and Dimitri very well and loved them deeply. However, I think as the eldest child she alsmost felt that it was her duty to resent Ella in a way. Pehaps with her father gone and off with a new family of his own, she felt that she was the only one who was going to carry on the memory of her dead mother, whom she of course never knew.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by PrinceEddy1864 »
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Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2005, 06:02:56 PM »
Thanks, Prince Eddy!   ;D

I think that Maria was a very difficult child and since she loved her father she could not blame him for his disappearance so shifted her resentment to Ella. At the same time, their personalities were so opposed. To Ella, like her mother, duty went hand-in-hand with royal status. Paul had, in her eyes, neglected his duty and her antipathy towards him after that would have been perceived by any child. Maria always comes across as a sulky character and I am very suspicious of her account of the 'cold hard look' in Ella's eyes when Maria kissed the back of her neck - it was probably shock if anything! It must have been so difficult for Ella, since Serge had made all the decisions about the children, and I agree that Ella pushed Maria into marriage too quickly - but in Ella's favour, it must be said that at first Maria had been eager to marry and - again like her mother - Ella seemed quite intolerant of indecision and shilly-shallying. (And, it must be remembered that Ella was unwell at the time of Maria's engagement so any shortness of temper can be excused.) I do feel that it would have been better though, if after Serge's death, Maria had been encouraged to go to her father in Paris. Ella put her off the idea probably because she felt she had to honour Serge's wishes. (That's just what I think anway!)

I am also suspicious of Maria's accounts of Ella's unkindness and lack of affection because so many other children delighted in her company and she went out of her way to make them happy, give them treats, play games with them etc. etc.

Offline TampaBay

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Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2005, 06:28:08 PM »
Blue,

Please clairfy the following statments:

Ella, Serge, Alexandra & Paul were all very close.  Almost as close as brothers and sisters and spent alot of time together for the two years from A&P's marriage to Alexandra's death. True or False.

MF & N II were very close to Dimirti but not to Maria Pavlovna-The Younger. True or False.

Maria Pavlovna-The Younger had a confused sense of indentity.  She perferred the company and freedom of commoners but would retreat back into her imperial shell if she felt threatened. True or False.

Maria Pavlovna-The Younger was one woman who should have married a man 20-25 years older than she because she was always searching for a father figure-husband.  Her life would have been different if Serge had lived becaause she was "the daughter he never had". True or False.

I believe I have left enough food for thought.,discussion & debate!

Chime on in with your comments, perspective, thoughts & views.

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« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by TampaBay »
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Offline PrinceEddy1864

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Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2005, 06:30:19 PM »
I agree with you blue about Maria's accounts of unkindness on Ella's part being imbelished or possibly even untrue. I dont think that Ella and Sergei ever thought of Maria and Dimitri as anything but "gifts" in themselves, which had basically fallen into their laps. I mean they never saw the children as a burden, at least when they were young. Therefore there would have been no reason for them to treat the children with anything but absolute kindness. After all they had been denied the pleasure of having children and Maria and Dimitri were like their second chance. Both Ella and Sergei seem to have been great "foster" parents. Maria's claims of Ella's coldness were probably made out of spite as Maria is the one who has always seemed a little bit cold to me.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by PrinceEddy1864 »
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Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2005, 06:35:58 PM »
What a lot of questions!!

Yes, true I think they were very close indeed and I believe that because they were so close Pavel's 'betrayal' was all the harder to take for both Ella & Serge.

After Serge's death, Dmitri spent a great deal of time with Nicholas and so they became very close.  Maria stayed with Ella in Moscow until her marriage (only 3 years after Serge's death) so she probably wouldn't have been so close. (I don't know about their relationship with MF)

I don't know about MP/s confused sense of identity but I doubt she would have been any happier if Serge had lived. He wasn't a man she could be close to as, I think, Pavel was. She says she was a little afraid of him and he was certainly extremely strict in her upbringing and in his refusal to allow her to spend time with her father...I can't imagine really how he could relate to an adolescent girl though he may have been better with Dmitri (though Felix didn't take to Serge & Felix & Dmitri were close friends so... :-/)

It'd be interesting to hear what other people think....




Offline PrinceEddy1864

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Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2005, 06:39:43 PM »
Quote
Maria Pavlovna-The Younger was one woman who should have married a man 20-25 years older than she because she was always searching for a father figure-husband.  Her life would have been different if Serge had lived becaause she was "the daughter he never had". True or False.



Oh I think she would definaltly have been very close to Sergei as a young women, had he lived. She probably got along good with males and actually to me she seems to have many qualities more befitting to a man. She did need a father figure in her life. Her marriage with Willem may have failed, for among many reasons, the fact that he did not have a very strong character/personality.

Basically she seems a little rough around the edges were Ella was a soft feminine character. This goes back to their differeing personalities.

Although blue is on to somthing about Sergei being harder to get closer to than her father. I tend to think that there was a logical reason why Sergei did not allow the children to see Pavel. Perhaps he figured his younger brother had failed at being a good or adequate father and being strict did not think he deserved a second chance at it. ???.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by PrinceEddy1864 »
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Offline crazy_wing

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Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2005, 03:28:47 AM »
Quote
Although blue is on to somthing about Sergei being harder to get closer to than her father. I tend to think that there was a logical reason why Sergei did not allow the children to see Pavel. Perhaps he figured his younger brother had failed at being a good or adequate father and being strict did not think he deserved a second chance at it. ???.


I was thinking maybe Sergei was trying to protect his niece and nephew from knowing that their father had started a new family and was happy with his new family?  I read that as a little child, Sergei tried to hide from Paul that their father had a mistress.

Another question, why did Ella choose a Swedish prince for Maria?  (because sweden was closed to Russia?)  Did Maria have any other choices?  

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Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
« Reply #8 on: September 06, 2005, 10:45:12 AM »
Quote
Oh I think she would definaltly have been very close to Sergei as a young women, had he lived. She probably got along good with males and actually to me she seems to have many qualities more befitting to a man.


What an interesting thought. I agree that Maria did seem quite 'manly' in some ways, I just couldn't really imagine Serge becoming close to a young girl...but then, he had enjoyed a happy relationship with Alix, hadn't he, so perhaps you are right.  :)

Quote

Although blue is on to somthing about Sergei being harder to get closer to than her father. I tend to think that there was a logical reason why Sergei did not allow the children to see Pavel. Perhaps he figured his younger brother had failed at being a good or adequate father and being strict did not think he deserved a second chance at it. ???.



I think that Serge intended to act from the highest motives but I think beneath these motives lay the resentment that Pavel had let him down so badly and in response (without intending to be deliberately cruel) he seized his chance of gaining the children he had always wanted.
I expect that Serge himself would have defended all his actions and genuinely believed that he was doing the right thing - but had he examined his unconscious motives, I suspect it was rather a punishment for Pavel and a way of filling a need in his own life.
 

Offline TampaBay

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Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2005, 10:10:07 AM »
Does anyone know how much "time" Wilhelm of Sweeden & MP spent together before they agreed to marry?  It seemd strange becuase Wilhelm came from a loving a family and this is exactly what on would expect MP needed.  She was close to the King of Sweeden was she not?

When did Wilhelm of Sweeden die?  How did he feel about MP leaving him?  Did he leave any memiors?

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« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by TampaBay »
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Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
« Reply #10 on: September 08, 2005, 10:54:06 AM »
MP & William had met on only a couple of occasions before their engagement though his mother was Ella's childhood friend Victoria of Baden. Someone else will probably have more details but I believe the King of Sweden was initially very reluctant to accept the divorce & it was only when Maria became seriously ill, that he gave way.

I feel sorry for William - Maria was very disloyal to him.  

Offline crazy_wing

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Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
« Reply #11 on: September 08, 2005, 01:45:46 PM »
I find it interesting that Elisabeth was considered for a Swedish prince and Victoria of Baden's brother Fritz.  She rejected them both and picked Sergei.  Then, she packed her niece off to Sweden, the traditional enemy of Russia...  

It was said that Maria Pavlovna only loved 1 person genuinely and that was her brother (they were buried together).  

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Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
« Reply #12 on: September 08, 2005, 02:45:39 PM »
Quote
I feel sorry for William - Maria was very disloyal to him.  


In what way was hse disloyal?

MP had very little luck in matrimony.  From what I have read, her second marriage was a disaster too.

Did Wilhelm re-marry?  Did he raise their son?

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Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
« Reply #13 on: September 09, 2005, 10:25:32 AM »
Quote

In what way was hse disloyal?

MP had very little luck in matrimony.  From what I have read, her second marriage was a disaster too.

Did Wilhelm re-marry?  Did he raise their son?


She allegedly told their son details about his father's 'lack of skill' which I doubt a son wishes to know!
I think he did raise their son, abut I don't think he remarried.

Offline Mandie, the Gothic Empress

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Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
« Reply #14 on: September 09, 2005, 03:22:16 PM »
William had a Mistress Jeanne de Tramcourt. I'm not sure what year they becamed Lovers? Maybe after Marie left or jouring the marriage?