Author Topic: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri  (Read 148894 times)

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Offline Kalafrana

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Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
« Reply #405 on: November 13, 2012, 04:28:23 AM »
It is one of the burdens of being a first-born to be expected to look after younger siblings and to be the one in trouble when they play up.

Episodes like this do not make me any more fond of Alexandra (herself a youngest from the age of six).

Ann

Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
« Reply #406 on: November 13, 2012, 09:54:06 AM »
I think you should read "Alix & Nicky" by Virginia Rounding. It tears off the chocolate box image of Nicholas & Alexandra as the ideal couple. The daughters, especially Olga & Marie were quite rebellious, had they lived on. The family harmony perceived by history would have been destroyed. I think Marie & Dimitri were the children of their times. They think of themselves more and the country and duty less.

Alexandra was the youngest and she was spoiled also by her family.

Offline Duchess Hydrangea

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Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
« Reply #407 on: November 13, 2012, 12:02:45 PM »
I think you should read "Alix & Nicky" by Virginia Rounding. It tears off the chocolate box image of Nicholas & Alexandra as the ideal couple. The daughters, especially Olga & Marie were quite rebellious, had they lived on. The family harmony perceived by history would have been destroyed. I think Marie & Dimitri were the children of their times. They think of themselves more and the country and duty less.

Alexandra was the youngest and she was spoiled also by her family.

How rebellious were the daughters? I know there were things they refused to do. You can PM me so we stay on topic.
Arthur of The Last Russian Czarhttp://www.amazon.com/Last-Russian-Czar-H-Carpathia/dp/1600431690/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1438094724&sr=8-6&keywords=the+last+russian+czar&pebp=1438094722063&perid=0HY1DJMAWA2SXA4BFAJ3

Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
« Reply #408 on: November 13, 2012, 12:17:55 PM »
I already did.  :)

I was a bit shocked by it, they were held in check by Alexandra unlike Marie and especially Dimitri (who lived a wild life).

Offline perdita

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Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
« Reply #409 on: November 13, 2012, 01:29:59 PM »
I think you should read "Alix & Nicky" by Virginia Rounding. It tears off the chocolate box image of Nicholas & Alexandra as the ideal couple. The daughters, especially Olga & Marie were quite rebellious, had they lived on. The family harmony perceived by history would have been destroyed. I think Marie & Dimitri were the children of their times. They think of themselves more and the country and duty less.

Alexandra was the youngest and she was spoiled also by her family.

Virginia Rounding's book is a single revisionist interpretation--not the last word.

It's impossible to know how GD. Olga & GD. Marie would have evolved as characters. It's unlikey they would have done a bunk (i.e., Marie Pavlovna). The history simply wasn't there.

Family retainers & OTMA's letters attest to the deep love & respect Nicholas & Alexandra's daughters felt for their parents. Olga & Marie were especially attached (abjectly) to their father.

Olga & Tatiana were age 21 and 23 respectively when they died & unlike Marie Pavlovna there is no evidence that either daughter indicated a sufficiently strong desire to be independent of their parents, to marry young, or to exit Russia. The reverse is true. Despite the occasional sulk & frustration, not unusal in the happiest of families, the four daughters of the Tsar remained oddly content to remain cloistered within the bosom of their adored family.

Marie Pavlovna, hardly a benign witness (& no fan of Alexandra's) admitted that theTsar's family life was near idyllic.

"Life at Tsarskoie was very pleasant... (the Emperor & Empress) were happy in the close intimacy of their isolation. The relations between the sovereigns & their children, in spite of all the luxury, were candid and simple.. There we were happiest, for there we sensed ourselves in a real family atmosphere tender, simple, & calm. The Emperor and his wife held for each other and for their children a deep and unswerving devotion--and their conjugal happiness was beautiful to see..."

Marie Pavlovna never revised her opinion.

So why doubt the FIRST HAND testimony of the Tsar's entire extended family, friends, & household retainers?

« Last Edit: November 13, 2012, 01:35:36 PM by perdita »

Offline perdita

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Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
« Reply #410 on: November 13, 2012, 02:42:02 PM »
Oe more contrast between Marie Pavlovna & Nicholas and Alexandra's children.

The Tsar's daughters not only adored their parental guardians, they were deeply devout. There are few sacrifices they would not make on behalf of parents, family & religion.

Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
« Reply #411 on: November 13, 2012, 03:09:54 PM »
Well...Did you read Olga's diaries ? They are full of soldiers, guards etc. One train of thought is that she refused to marry Carol of Romania because she was in love with a palace guard, who was speedily re-posted and married. No...Virginia Rounding was not the first one to see cracks in the "idyllic" version.  I trust Missy's observations that the girls were afraid of their mother. and could only be natural if she was not around. Hardly an ideal situation. In the later days of the captivity, Marie fell in love with a guard and was boycotted by the rest of the family.

The truth is painful but I prefer that to the rose tainted glasses. I don't think you could trust the words of Marie and discount that of Sandro. They all have to be taken as a whole.

Offline perdita

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Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
« Reply #412 on: November 14, 2012, 01:40:35 AM »
Well...Did you read Olga's diaries ? They are full of soldiers, guards etc. One train of thought is that she refused to marry Carol of Romania because she was in love with a palace guard, who was speedily re-posted and married. No...Virginia Rounding was not the first one to see cracks in the "idyllic" version.  I trust Missy's observations that the girls were afraid of their mother. and could only be natural if she was not around. Hardly an ideal situation. In the later days of the captivity, Marie fell in love with a guard and was boycotted by the rest of the family.

The truth is painful but I prefer that to the rose tainted glasses. I don't think you could trust the words of Marie and discount that of Sandro. They all have to be taken as a whole.

MOST teenage girl's diaries (& thoughts) are full of man crushes. So what? Is there evidence that Olga & Tatiana requested permission to marry a suitable partner ("Man Of Their Dreams") and that Nicholas & Alexandra refused?

Marie of Rumania & Victoria Melita could not abide the Empress Alexandra. Neither were impartial witnesses. "Missy" scantly knew OTMA & her cursory observations were hardly conclusive. No doubt Alexandra had instructed her daughters to be on their best behavior with the Rumanian Queen and when absent the young Grand Duchesses relaxed in her presense, along with their father who, unlike Alix, enjoyed a comfortable relationship with his cousin.

The idea that OTMA could "only be natural" when their mother wasn't around is not substaniated. The vast majority of the Romanov family, friends, & staff who knew Nichoals & Alexandra intimately long term & FIRST HAND describe their relations with their daughters as informal & delightful. Even "Missy" did not deny that Alexandra was a good mother and wife who's family life was happy--i.e., "Sufficent unto themselves".

Summing up, "Missy's" opinion of Alexandra was grudging to say the least and she was only too willing to find fault & cast all blame for Russia's problems on Alexandra.

Marie of Rumania on OTMA: "I was never with them long enough to know them intimately."

Marie Pavlovna vs. "Sandro"?

Marie & Dimitri lived intimately with Serge & Ella for over a decade. Sandro, a confirmed Serge vilifier & abject Ella partisan, did not.

Did Dimitri contradict his sister's public narrative?

Why NOT dismiss Sandro's lone opinion of Serge within the Romanov family circle? Summarily you dismiss the views of dozens of credible people who knew Serge well and who claimed to "love" "like" or "respect" him?

To reinterate:

"Missy" Marie of Rumania
Grand Duchess Elizabeth--wife.
Tsar Alexander 111
KR--And all his family.
Prince Gabriel
Grand Duke Paul
Marie Alexandrovna
Olga Alexandrovna
Victoria of Battenberg
Ernest of Hesse
Olga of Greece
Alexandra of Greece
Marie of Greece
Grand Duke Kyrill & Victoria Melita
Poet A.F. Tuitchev
Meriel Buchanan
Countess Kleinmichel & daughters
Zinaida Yusupov
Countess Tolstoy & family.
Dostoevsky..etc.

Were they ALL blindsided dupes?

Senior Statesman Count Sergei Witte under two Tsars, quote

"The Grand Duke Sergei Alexandrovich, in essence, was a very noble and honest man."

To repeat. You do not condemn KR & Sandro for their marital transgressions confirmed, but smear with conjecture the private reputation of the Grand Duke Serge for marital offences not confirmed.  (?)





« Last Edit: November 14, 2012, 02:15:13 AM by perdita »

Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
« Reply #413 on: November 14, 2012, 08:50:02 AM »
There is evidence that guards were replaced when they get too close to the girls. Since they were isolated and kept from society, the only emotional outlets are the guards and they often led into unequal unions. Their Aunt Olga Alexandrovna was the prime example. Ernst of Hesse thinks Nicholas II was weak by saying that he was a nice man but don't know how to handle his sister. So the ideal image of the Imperial Family came crashing down. By the time of the revolution nobody in the Imperial family respects them.

The list.

Miechen
Sandro & Xenia
Olga of Greece
Missy
Kyrill & Victoria
Marie of Greece
Count Witte
Grand Duke Paul & his wife
Grand Duke Nicholas
Princess Yussopov.

Almost your identical list on those who "respected" Serge.
Although KR indicated that he lost his respect for Serge after the coronation disaster in Moscow.
As did Sandro and his brothers who walked out of the French Ball.
Don't think Dowager Empress Marie was too fond of Serge either.

Offline perdita

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Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
« Reply #414 on: November 14, 2012, 04:53:27 PM »
There is evidence that guards were replaced when they get too close to the girls. Since they were isolated and kept from society, the only emotional outlets are the guards and they often led into unequal unions. Their Aunt Olga Alexandrovna was the prime example. Ernst of Hesse thinks Nicholas II was weak by saying that he was a nice man but don't know how to handle his sister. So the ideal image of the Imperial Family came crashing down. By the time of the revolution nobody in the Imperial family respects them.

The list.

Miechen
Sandro & Xenia
Olga of Greece
Missy
Kyrill & Victoria
Marie of Greece
Count Witte
Grand Duke Paul & his wife
Grand Duke Nicholas
Princess Yussopov.

Almost your identical list on those who "respected" Serge.
Although KR indicated that he lost his respect for Serge after the coronation disaster in Moscow.
As did Sandro and his brothers who walked out of the French Ball.
Don't think Dowager Empress Marie was too fond of Serge either.


KR did not say that he lost respect for Serge after the coronation disaster. What he wrote was; "Of course, Sergei is not personally responsible... however, it is his fault he is being showered with accusations"--i.e., Serge did not go to scene of incident & proceeded with the French ball. (Ulimately, it was the Emperor's decision to attend.) As a result KR remarked "(Serge) has not acted in the way I consider he should." This greived KR because "I love him dearly."

KR remained a confidant & a fast friend of the Grand Duke Serge to the last.

KR, quote 1905 assassination: "As if struck by lightening, for the first minutes I could not take anything in. I went to say goodby to Mama. She is never told any bad news. It was only as I was leaving her that I realized what I had lost, and burst into tears. I must prepare my wife--she loved Sergei so much."

Marie Pavlovna on her uncle the Grand Duke Serge: "Those few who knew him well were deeply devoted to him."

Where does the Dowager Empress Marie specifically state that she did not like the Grand Duke Sergei?

Hardly a new revelation that Nicholas was "weak" when it came to curbing the excesses of Alexandra.

The "List" names may have lost respect for Nicholas as Tsar, but none on that list denied the conjugal love Nicholas & Alexandra felt for one another, or the respect & devotion the children had for their parents.

That the Grand Duchess Marie was conjectured "boycotted" in 1918 by her family is absurd. Where is the evidence?

Nicholas & his family's royal letters, diaries, & the first hand testimony of their Romanov relations, friends, and staff are more to be credited than contemporay revisionist authors peddling snide "modern psychological testing" (suppositions), glaring factual errors, secondary sourcing--not first hand, rudimentary notes making it difficult to validate those stories, no apparent new archival research,--ditto indeterminate chronology, etc.

"Isolated & kept from society....Their Aunt Olga Alexandrovich was a prime example."

Whether kept from society OR NO--the Romnaov family was replete with "unequal unions". Misalliances were not a proclivity restricted to the mother dominated & isolated Olga Alexandrovna.

Examples: Alexandra critics "Missy"of Rumania & George V's in no way isolated or shielded their sons from society, i.e.,-- King Carol of Rumania, Prince Nicholas of Rumania, & Edward V111 of England,--AND ALL cultivated a major taste for "unequal unions".

As did (In one form or another):
Alexander 11
Grand Duke Constantine Nicholavich
Grand Duke Alexis Alexandrovich
Grand Duke Nicholas Constantinovich
Grand Duke Nicholas Michaelovich
Grand Duke Michael Michaelovich
"Sandro" Michaelovich (In exile)
Grand Duchess Anastasia Michaelovich (Informally)
Grand Duke Paul Alexandrovich
Grand Duke Boris Vladimirovich
Grand Duke Andrea Vladimirovich
Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Grand Duke Dimitri Pavlovich
Marie Pavlovna
Elizabeth of Rumania (informally)
Princess Marie of Greece
...........etc.

Nor did Nicholas 11 grant permission for Kyril to marry his divorced first cousin Victoria Melita. Not an "unequal" match--but not permitted by the laws of the Russian Orthodox Church.

OTMA died devout & respected young women in the eyes of their Emperor & the Russian Orthodox Church. Don't conjecture to defile their memory.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2012, 05:25:35 PM by perdita »

Offline perdita

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Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
« Reply #415 on: November 14, 2012, 05:29:40 PM »
Correction: Grand Duchess Anasatasie Mikhailovna. (The aberrant sister of "Sandro".)

Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
« Reply #416 on: November 14, 2012, 08:23:48 PM »
If you want to live in a rose tainted bowl and ignored the truth of how Alicky was a control freak mother. Olga who wanted to break away and had serious problems with her mother and Marie whose last affair with the guards was "ignored" by the family shortly before they were executed. There is enough material to rebutt the ideal vision that you indicate. The truth is not always beautiful, but it is real. I personally belong to the Eastern Orthodox Church and the girls were sainted because of the way they died.

Nicholas was of course weak (he allowed the marriages of Kyrill, Paul & Misha to go through and gave Ducky the title of grand duchess). King Edward VIII once said he liked his Russian nephew (Nicholas II) but he was as weak as water. Miechen said Alexandra should be shut up in a nunnery and ready to make that happen. Respect ?

Offline Mandie, the Gothic Empress

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Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
« Reply #417 on: November 14, 2012, 08:52:19 PM »
^ Eric, Marie Nikolaievna had no affair, more of a flirt with the Guards, the girl was Innocent - I bid $1000 dollars that Marie Nikolaievna doesn’t even know what sex is, the Tsarina made sure of that her daughters were naïve and innocent!

And stop going around in circles over nonsense and off topic!

Back to topic, or I'll warn AP, because a lot of us here had enough!

Offline rachel5a

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Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
« Reply #418 on: November 15, 2012, 05:26:42 AM »
GD Ella was very religious. Did her religiousness have any influence on GD Maria and GD Dmitri??? Were they religious at all?

Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
« Reply #419 on: November 15, 2012, 08:19:49 AM »
I don't think Marie and Dimitri were religious and under her influence at all. Marie was rebellious and Dimitri was wild. Ironically the person who was interested in Ella's brand of religious spirituality was Felix Yussopv, the boon friend of Dmitri and son of Zinida Yussopv, friend of Ella.