Author Topic: Anastasia's Supporter Among the Forum Members  (Read 17981 times)

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Offline AGRBear

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Re: Anastasia's Supporter Among the Forum Members
« Reply #105 on: December 12, 2005, 12:39:00 PM »
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This is exactly the value of the DNA evidence. It settles the question without regard to pesky things like conflicting memories (was it Maria whose finger was crushed in the accident, or Anastasia?) Obviously the DNA evidence is not convincing to you. But it is still incumbent upon you to demonstrate through evidence that staff members at Martha Jefferson colluded in the contamination of the evidence, and while I hate to sound like a broken record here, annaandersen, the FA and others have actually done their homework in this matter. They have provided ample HARD evidence that the sample could not have been contaminated at the hospital. The results of the DNA were verified FOUR times, and impartial experts have stated that there is no reason to dispute them.

Please believe me when I tell you that this is not simply thumbing my nose at your position. I met Anna Andersen in real life, I attended the University of Virginia, members of my family worked for Martha Jefferson at the time the intestinal sample was taken, and I have spent a very long time reading a LOT of information about the Andersen case.  As with several others on these threads, for at least part of my work I was inclined to accept her claims. The DNA evidence is too compelling, but you will remember that throughout her life, Anastasia Manahan's claim to be the Grand Duchess was disputed by men and women who had been in close personal contact with the real girl.  While she was able to win a "not proven" judgement in German courts regarding her identity, that does not mean that she was accepted as Anastasia. It means that there was a lot of forensic evidence that seemingly supported her claim (the Dassel testimony, some, though not all, of the graphology experts, etc.)

The DNA evidence has been in existence for over a decade, and could have been impeached at any time. Remember, these tests were performed at the behest of Andersen's supporters, not her enemies. I suspect it was to finally prove that they had been right (since Manahan was dead it could hardly help her), and it backfired.

We sometimes forget that others suffered aside from Manahan. Olga Alexandrovna, for example, endured a lifetime of strangers presenting themselves as her dead niece, and other family members were subjected to the events in Ekaterinburg being dredged up again and again.  Their motivations have been questioned, their familial loyalty mocked --- if you give Maria Feodorovna, Olga Alexandrovna and Ksenia Alexandrovna any credit at all as mothers, grandmothers, sisters and aunts, can't you see why this matter was painful for them until the day they died? The real Grand Duchess Anastasia may not have been a particularly brilliant ot lovable child, but she was loved by them, and to be confronted by pretender after pretender was surely difficult.

In any event, I doubt that you will be convinced by this argument, but I do caution you again about speculations regarding the hospital staff. Do some legwork, find out who handled the sample, and after investigative reporting of the kind that historians are expected to do, bring your findings to the board. I would look forward to reading them. But to postulate that there was a conspiracy without doing that is frivolous.

Regards,

Simon





>> I met Anna Andersen in real life, I attended the University of Virginia, members of my family worked for Martha Jefferson at the time the intestinal sample was taken, and I have spent a very long time reading a LOT of information about the Andersen case.<<

I assume, they, the members of your family who worked for Martha Jefferson, also, stated that  a "switch" was just as impossible as contamination of the intestine sample which is said to have been Anna Anderson's.

AGRBear



« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
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Offline Louis_Charles

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Re: Anastasia's Supporter Among the Forum Members
« Reply #106 on: December 12, 2005, 02:35:28 PM »
Bear,

I have come to the conclusion that you cannot be reading posts before you respond to them. I stated several times before, on numerous threads in which we both participated, that I had had relatives that worked at MJH, that I met Anna Andersen (you once asked me what she was like) and that I attended the University of Virginia. I hope you bring a more developed degree of concentration to your research.

And no, it doesn't explain why I defend Martha Jefferson, or at least my connection with it isn't offered as evidence --- it is a personal experience, and works only if you have had it. Kind of like the stories of the Bear relatives lamming out of Russia. They're interesting, but they prove nothing about Manahan's experience as she described it.

I defend Martha Jefferson because no one has been able to demonstrate that the hospital was derelict in its' duty or failed in its responsibilities.

As for why Gibbes asked Andersen the questions in the way that he did, I have no idea. To repeat a Bear-ism, I wasn't there, and my knowledge of this comes from sources. Annaandersen asked for an example of where Anna Andersen (my, that's a confusing sentence!) was inconsistent.

Gibbes first met Anastasia when she arrived at his classroom at Tsarskoe Selo dressed as a chimney sweep, not a columbine, which is a theatrical costume indebted to commedia del arte.

Mrs. Tchaikovsky = Anna Andersen, obviously. Her failure to identify the rooms, the pets, the teachers and the costume disqualified her as the Grand Duchess for Gibbes.

Please re-read my post above. I do not think that a failure of memory is ample evidence to dismiss her claim to be Anastasia (I think the DNA takes care of that), but I also don't think that a successful memory, i.e. the Felix Dassel case, is enough to confirm it. Neither did the German courts, of course.

Regards,

Simon
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Offline Louis_Charles

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Re: Anastasia's Supporter Among the Forum Members
« Reply #107 on: December 12, 2005, 02:44:03 PM »
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Simon,  do you know how old GD Anastasia was when she was last in the rooms in the photographs and is there a way we could know what he showed her so we could see for ourselves what AA failed to reconize?


Assuming that the photos were of Tsarskoe Selo, she was 16. I have no idea what photos he showed her. Gibbes described them as rooms in which the Grand Duchess had lived.

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Another things that has poped into my head,  why would Gibbs have to resort to photographs, when, he, afterall,  having been a tutor, must have hundreds and hundreds of little stories the real Anastasia would have been able to answer and a fake could not, so why use photographs to prove she was not whom she claimed?

Perhaps he did ask her other questions. Why didn't Andersen identify the photos? These are imponderables.
 
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Or are there hundreds of other stories to which Anna Anderson failed to answer correctly and  these are just a few examples of why Gibbs knew Anna Anderson could not possibly been GD Anastasia?


There are other examples of where she made errors, yes. I am away from my library right now, but I will post some others. However, see my post immediately above this one. By itself, I am not sure either a memory or a lack of one is sufficient evidence of her identity. There are simply too many opportunities to contaminate her, i.e. feed her the information . . . and if the head wounds were severe enough, then there is an excuse for a lack of memory.


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I am cuirous,  what was she?  And, who was dressed as a "columbine"?


Grand Duchess Anastasia was dressed as a chimney sweep upon the occasion Gibbes was citing. Andersen said she was a columbine.


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Did GD Anastasia have a limp?


No. Andersen had identified Gibbes as having one.



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I will have to depend on Simon and others for the "inconsistent" and as well as the "consisitent" which deals with Anna Anderson and her claims of being GD Anastasia.


I and the others live to serve, Bear. ;D

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AGRBear


Regards,

Simon
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Louis_Charles »
"Simon --- Classy AND Compassionate!"
   
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Offline AGRBear

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Re: Anastasia's Supporter Among the Forum Members
« Reply #108 on: December 12, 2005, 05:02:31 PM »
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....[in part]....

I and the others live to serve, Bear. ;D


Regards,

Simon


Don't I wish this was true    ;).

Since you and others are not placed here on earth to serve Bear,  let me thank you for your information.

AGRBear


"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

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Offline etonexile

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Re: Anastasia's Supporter Among the Forum Members
« Reply #109 on: December 12, 2005, 08:47:24 PM »
The Bear serves her own reality....and I just smile.... ;)

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Anastasia's Supporter Among the Forum Members
« Reply #110 on: December 13, 2005, 11:47:28 AM »
I am sure you have learned something along the side roads Bear takes you, so,  it is Bear who has the biggest smile  ;D

AGRBear
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

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Offline etonexile

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Re: Anastasia's Supporter Among the Forum Members
« Reply #111 on: December 13, 2005, 12:06:31 PM »
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I am sure you have learned something along the side roads Bear takes you, so,  it is Bear who has the biggest smile  ;D

AGRBear


The late afternoon sun is long gone....the dark,gray  evening begins to enfold the world of small boys and teddy bears in graphite coloured wings..."Tedders...the postman has brought us this package...along with the latest copy of "Swinging Seniors" for Granny...Let's open it..."...."It's...a box...from...someone called...AGRBear...It's...empty...but it says in the bottom....'Think inside the box,and outside as well'...I think that's profound,or something,Teddy"...Teddy nods....and lights up a Dunhill...very profound teddy he....