Author Topic: Why Was AA Afraid To Be Found?  (Read 9951 times)

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Offline Annie

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Re: Why Was AA Afraid To Be Found?
« Reply #30 on: October 26, 2005, 12:14:27 PM »
Then to answer the original question, nope. She was not afraid to be found. She spent decades making a public spectacle of herself, calling herself AN. If she was so afraid and wanted to hide, she would not have done this.

Offline Elisabeth

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Re: Why Was AA Afraid To Be Found?
« Reply #31 on: October 26, 2005, 12:58:13 PM »
I think it bears repeating:

According to the Dalldorf report, AA did not say she was living in fear of her life. No. She said she was afraid of "persecution."

The only evidence we have that this "persecution" amounted to a life-threatening situation is Peter Kurth's. He concluded - concluded, I stress - that this is what she meant. But unless we have the actual doctors' reports in front of our eyes and they say something different, all we have for now is that AA was afraid of "persecution."
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Offline AGRBear

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Re: Why Was AA Afraid To Be Found?
« Reply #32 on: October 26, 2005, 01:11:26 PM »
Quote

Elvis was/is often seen all over the world*. It doesn't mean that he was/is still alive...

*P.S. So are UFOs.


We're not commenting on this kind of post anymore.

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« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
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Offline AGRBear

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Re: Why Was AA Afraid To Be Found?
« Reply #33 on: October 26, 2005, 01:12:46 PM »
Quote
I think it bears repeating:

According to the Dalldorf report, AA did not say she was living in fear of her life. No. She said she was afraid of "persecution."

The only evidence we have that this "persecution" amounted to a life-threatening situation is Peter Kurth's. He concluded - concluded, I stress - that this is what she meant. But unless we have the actual doctors' reports in front of our eyes and they say something different, all we have for now is that AA was afraid of "persecution."


So,  you think this is just part of Peter Kurth's interpretation of what AA meant.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

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Offline Elisabeth

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Re: Why Was AA Afraid To Be Found?
« Reply #34 on: October 26, 2005, 01:20:07 PM »
It's quite possible that Peter Kurth has some kind of proof that AA told the doctors at Dalldorf she was living in fear of her life. But in that case he should have quoted it directly. Otherwise his account is somewhat misleading, especially since what he actually quotes from the doctors' report is that AA feared "persecution." Persecution, not murder. So that is all we have to go on, unless someone else here can cite the report in full.
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Offline AGRBear

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Re: Why Was AA Afraid To Be Found?
« Reply #35 on: October 26, 2005, 01:35:37 PM »
So this could mean she feared persecution of her making a claim of being GD Anastasia?

Could someone tell me a page number in Kurth's book on  Anastasia?

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« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

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Offline Louis_Charles

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Re: Why Was AA Afraid To Be Found?
« Reply #36 on: October 26, 2005, 01:51:36 PM »
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The Perm stories have not been discredited.  What has occured is that people have set these testimonies aside.


Because they were discredited. If they had not been, they would not have been set aside. Am I missing an argument thread here?

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Greg King wrote in a post which I'll have to find said that he and Penny didn't find information which they found interesting enough to follow.  Like others,  it was their opinion at the time he wrote the post and the book that there were no survivors.  However, they did include the fact that Anastasia may have survived for a time but not Alexei.   [Note: It's been too long since I read these posts so I may not remember this as accurately as I should.]


Penny Wilson certainly speculated that as many as four of the people shot that night might have left the Ipatiev House alive, judging by certain descriptions given by the shooters and the forensic examination of the remains.

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Most posters here think that an escape was impossible because they lean so heavily on Yurovsky, Ermakov and the other men who were the shooters of  Nicholas II and at least eight others who were found in the mass grave in Pig's Meadow.

My clue is based a geat deal on the lack of bones which should have been in the grave but were not.  Indicating to me that this was not the original  grave for some.


The excavation of the remains was not carried out in the most careful manner, and there is evidence that the grave was disturbed in the 1970s. I believe you have speculated that the grave site might also have been disturbed under Stalin. If true, these incursions might have accounted for some of the missing bones. There was also a large amount of acid poured over the bodies. Several of the skulls show signs of intense punishment, and none of the bodies was encased in a coffin, or preserved in any way. All of these seem more probable than the idea that the grave site was not the original resting place.  

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Since most of these testimonies as well as evidence was destroyed not just by the Reds, it was also destroyed by the Whites, including men like Gilliard who admitted in AA's trial that he had destroyed important information/evidence.


"Most" of the testimonies? Greg King and Penny Wilson were certainly able to find a substantial number of corroborative testimonies when they wrote Fate of the Romanovs. I find this book to be authoritative in nearly every aspect ---- they document their plentiful sources. If, for example, the story of the women being taken to Perm was credible, don't you think they would have included it as part of the "Fate" of the Romanovs? And please don't hedge by saying that you can't speak for them. Their book speaks for them, and their book clearly, graphically and effectively describes the family as being shot on July 16, 1918. They do not rule out the possibility of a survivor, but I think their description does rule out the idea that anybody went to Perm. 

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The reason I have to depend so much on the outdated book of Summers and Mangold is because they are the only ones who dug into the testimonies which are still in existence and placed them in a book I have read.


And yet you have presumably read Fate of the Romanovs.
 
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As far as I know,  they did not fabricate the testimonies they entered into their book.

As I said in my previous post, no one thinks they "fabricated' anything. There were certainly rumors flying about in the late summer of 1918, and they tracked several of them down. The rumors turned out to be untrue, as rumors frequently do.


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Like I said,  I'll have to let others who know more about AA's life to make comments.


Okay. The descriptions of Anna Andersen's behavior throughout her life were culled from Peter Kurth's book, James Lovell's book, Summers and Mangold's File on the Tsar and several other sources.


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This is just a "out of the box" speculation and needs to be suggested and investigated to see just how "silly" or "impossible" this could have been.


The idea that a major operation was being run by the CHEKA without the knowledge/consent of the Soviet leadership is about as probable as the space alien theory that everyone was nattering on about a few weeks ago.

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I'm not sure how many of you understand how entangled Felik D., the head of the CHEKA's, agents were in Europe.   These agents had worked their way into very high positions even in the British SIS as well as their world of politics.

Lenin and Stalin in those early years had given Felik D. freedom with his agents, including the organizations called TRUST, the Lysma and other revolutionary "cells" [groups].

It was not uncommon for revolutionaries to infiltrate the factories like the one AA, if she was FS,  was working.  

Lenin and Stalin may not have known about  AA and the reason behind the need of creating a false GD Anastasia.


What would the need be to create a false Grand Duchess Anastasia? A false Alexei, a false Nicholas, sorta kinda maybe, but a false Grand Duchess Anastasia?

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Like the woman in  My Fair Lady,  AA  must have had gone through a period of training to become a GD Anastasia claimant.  Why?  There was a great deal a commoner had to learn about being royal, Russian and enough of the various languages (High German, French, Enlgish and Russian) to fool people  who knew the GD.


Again,  I'll have to let others answer this because I don't recall this part of AA's life.


Okay, fine. Then let me tell you: she made mistakes, she mis-identified people, and she was not able to convince several people that had known the real Grand Duchess quite well that she was AN. How difficult was it to learn to "play the part"? I don't know; a lot of this stuff seems to rely upon people's willingness to suspend disbelief.

For example: there are some people that maintain she had the same brilliant blue eyes as the Tsar. Obviously a pretender to be Anastasia would have had to have blue eyes. But from there out, it gets a little murky. Adjectives like "sparkling" or "penetrating" or "expressive" are subjective in application.


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Like I said,  there are always the acceptions.


I agree. I don't think one can make a general statement about Anna Andersen's suicide attempt, if that in fact was what it was.

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I think on one of these threads,  people thought that some of the scars AA had were self inflicted.


I think the idea that she inflicted things like the head wound upon herself has been discredited.

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I don't know.


My suggestions were possible reasons she may have been afraid if she was GD Anastasis  or  FS or AA  (if she was not FS).


Since I'm not sure, yet,  that AA was FS,  then  I really can't respond to your question, accept to say,  whomever she was,  anxiety had to have raised it's ugly head and could have caused all kinds of mental problems,  one of which, I think, was probably depression.

AGRBear


The topic of this thread is "Why was AA afraid to be found?"  I wish you would address the idea that she actually seems to have wanted to be found.

Simon
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Offline AGRBear

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Re: Why Was AA Afraid To Be Found?
« Reply #37 on: October 26, 2005, 02:17:50 PM »
Quote

...[in part]....



Okay. The descriptions of Anna Andersen's behavior throughout her life were culled from Peter Kurth's book, James Lovell's book, Summers and Mangold's File on the Tsar and several other sources.


This is what Elisabeth seems to think.

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Okay, fine. Then let me tell you: she made mistakes, she mis-identified people, and she was not able to convince several people that had known the real Grand Duchess quite well that she was AN. How difficult was it to learn to "play the part"? I don't know; a lot of this stuff seems to rely upon people's willingness to suspend disbelief.

For example: there are some people that maintain she had the same brilliant blue eyes as the Tsar. Obviously a pretender to be Anastasia would have had to have blue eyes. But from there out, it gets a little murky. Adjectives like "sparkling" or "penetrating" or "expressive" are subjective in application.



I agree. I don't think one can make a general statement about Anna Andersen's suicide attempt, if that in fact was what it was.



We've already gone into the subject about AA knowing about the trip GD Anastasia's uncle GD Ernie made into Russia during the war.   I believe he did.  You believe he didn't.   I talked endlessly about the "tiny pillows" carried by the women as they walked down the stairs which was reported in Yurovsky's report and not known otherwise but then we discovered others like Gilliard heard about the pillows.... BUT, they didn't know about the jewels within.  My opinion is that I think AA knew things only the CHEKA knew at that time.  You think this speculation as "silly".  I agree, we disagree.

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The topic of this thread is "Why was AA afraid to be found?"  I wish you would address the idea that she actually seems to have wanted to be found.

Simon


The TOPIC is about "Why was AA afraid to be found?"  No matter who she was, those who know more about her than I will provide us with sources.  Elisabeth has already given us some thoughts.

I assume AA, if AA was NOT  GD Anastasia,  wanted to be found if it was her goal to become claimant.   If she was GD Anastasia, which most of us don't think she was,  then once people believed she was,  then she must have desided that she might as well say she was.  If she was FS and mentally ill and not part of a skeme,  then I think she may have just gone along for the ride and liked where it was taking her but she never achieved being accepted by all.    

It appears AA's  mental state never allowed her to be anything but a woman in constant turmoil.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

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Offline Elisabeth

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Re: Why Was AA Afraid To Be Found?
« Reply #38 on: October 26, 2005, 02:33:26 PM »
Quote
 I talked endlessly about the "tiny pillows" carried by the women as they walked down the stairs which was reported in Yurovsky's report and not known otherwise but then we discovered others like Gilliard heard about the pillows.... BUT, they didn't know about the jewels within.  My opinion is that I think AA knew things only the CHEKA knew at that time.  You think this speculation as "silly".  I agree, we disagree.


Gilliard knew about the "little pillows" the women carried to the murder room because of the testimony of Pavel Medvedev to White interrogators: "The maid had a pillow in her hands. The daughters brought little pillows with them also." It's curious that neither Yurovsky nor any of the guards whose testimony I've read mentions any jewels sewn into the pillows. I don't know where this story started. Presumably it is not in the Sokolov Report, either (I just checked and can't find it!). So the story of jewels sewn into pillows might actually be a myth, and if AA repeated it then perhaps we've caught her out in another lie.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Elisabeth »
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Offline AGRBear

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Re: Why Was AA Afraid To Be Found?
« Reply #39 on: October 26, 2005, 02:51:45 PM »
I believe the jewels in the pillow was mentioned by one of the shooters...    I can't seem to pull it out of my memory today as to who it was but I do remember it was  about the bullets hitting the little pillows which deflected the bullets and prevented them from striking the back wall.  And,  this was the excuse given why there were too few bullet holes in th wall.

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« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

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Offline Elisabeth

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Re: Why Was AA Afraid To Be Found?
« Reply #40 on: October 26, 2005, 03:06:03 PM »
I don't recall any such quote, Bear. According to testimony, Demidova tried to use the pillow to deflect bayonet blows, not bullets. She was stabbed to death. Apparently the pillow was not an adequate shield.

I'm almost sure I've never come across the story of jewels sewn into Demidova's pillow except in Massie, but he must have got it from somewhere. Was it Gilliard or the Sokolov Report? And if it was true and jewels were actually hidden in the pillow(s), is it possible the Bolsheviks didn't find them and threw the pillow(s) into the pyre with the rest of the IF's belongings that night?

Whatever the truth of the matter, it seems the Cheka did not know what AA supposedly did!!!

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Offline AGRBear

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Re: Why Was AA Afraid To Be Found?
« Reply #41 on: October 26, 2005, 03:27:13 PM »
I was wrong.  There is nothing in Letemin testimony which tells us that there were jewels in the pillow.

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p. 122 FILE ON THE TSAR by Mangold and Summers.

In Oct of 1918 Judge Sergeyev, the investigator before Sokolov, was asking an ex-guard of the Ipatiev House Mikhail Letemin questions:

>>Letemin had an alibi for the night of 16 July, but said he had been told of the murders when he came on duty next morning.  His informant was Andrei Strekotin, who claimed he and seen the family led into the basement and shot while he was on guard.... Letemin said he had queried the story, point out that there ought to be a large number of bullet holes in the room, which there were not, Strekotin replied:  "Why so many?  The tsarina's maid hid behind a pillow, and lots of bullets went into the pillow."


Still would like to know what kind of   pillow can collect bullets.

It was I who thought that maybe the pillow didn't collect bullets but deflected them because maybe there were jewels in the pillows.

Sorry for not remembering correctly.

Elisabeth said Massie said something about jewels in the pillows?  I'll have to go look.  Maybe, that's where I ....  Well, let me take a look before I say more.

Jewels or no jewels,  we should take this to another thread since this isn't about AA's fears.  Where do you want to continue about the pillow and jewels?

AGRBear





« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

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Offline RealAnastasia

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Re: Why Was AA Afraid To Be Found?
« Reply #42 on: October 26, 2005, 08:47:01 PM »
All books I have about the case, even those that are AGAINST AA's claim , admited that she was extremely afraid to be found, and that she didn't want to do an spectacle of herself, but the opposite. Only Gilliard said that AA was a con artist that wanted to be famous and make money lying about her true identity.

Decaux and Castelot, for example, didn't believe that AA was AN, but rather a poor crazy young woman who really was convinced about her being Anastasia . She seems to have truly feel panic to be found.  She even tried to change her appareance (and with this , she made herself the less similar to AN than ever and closest to FS, for she changed intentionally her hairdo lines and made her lips fuller by brushing them furiously every day) and spoke to a nurse to fly with her to South Africa (my source is Harriet Von Rathlef and Peter Kurth, but Decaux spoke of it in his book too).

If she was Anastasia, it's clear what were her reasons to be afraid; if not, she must have been a mad creature who truly thought she was persecuted. Some mental illness are just like this.

But I don't think she was a con artist who was perfectly aware of what she was doing. She was clearly "pushed" to declare publicaly who she was, and she was used by some people to their political purposes, or simply to make money on her. I think she was more happy living with Clara Peuthert than with Baron Von Kleist or Inspector Grüneberg or Mr. Jaenicke. Just my thoughts. If she was Anastasia, we must easily understand that she would rather like to live unoticed with commoner friends. If she was not, she could have wanted to be treated as if she was a Grand Duchess by commoners and not by noble people who would expect from her that she would act all time as a great lady. Commoners would admire her and provide her with all she wanted to, not having to work, a thing that she avoided all her long life.

So, why should her make publicity of herself? If she was Anastasia this would have been nonsense as well as if she wasn't.  My opinion is that her "friends" pushed her to go on with her claim. She never liked to be photographied and she rarely gave an interview. Only in her late life, she appeared much more before a TV screen , but pushed by John Manahan. She didn't speak much, however...

RealAnastasia.

Offline Louis_Charles

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Re: Why Was AA Afraid To Be Found?
« Reply #43 on: October 26, 2005, 10:24:42 PM »
The description of her behavior in Peter Kurth's book has Andersen pointing to pictures of the Imperial Family in magazines at Dalldorf and asking the nurses if they didn't see a resemblance. How is that not wanting to be "found"?
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Offline Annie

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Re: Why Was AA Afraid To Be Found?
« Reply #44 on: October 27, 2005, 08:06:26 AM »
I do think there was some reason FS didn't want to be found, the same reasons she must have had when she jumped into the canal. Whatever it was must be a fascinating story we may never know. But as "Anastasia" she did seem to want lots of publicity. If she didn't she wouldn't have had the trial, wouldn't have gone to NYC, wouldn't have posed for all those pics like the parakeet ones.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Annie »