Author Topic: Perkin Warbeck.. Was he, or wasn't he..  (Read 33324 times)

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Offline Kimberly

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Perkin Warbeck.. Was he, or wasn't he..
« on: October 22, 2005, 10:45:22 AM »
.....Prince Richard, youngest son of Elizabeth and Edward IV?
Perkin Warbeck/Osbeck troubled Henry VII from his surfacing in Ireland in 1491 until his capture 6 years later. He was a plausible candidate for Richard because he clearly resembled his putative father Edward IV and he never betrayed himself by word or deed. However, he always refused to give an account of how he "escaped" from the Tower after the death of his brother.
Margaret of Burgundy backed him so did she believe the lad was her young nephew or did she manipulate and "feed" an imposter relevant information to cause mischief for Henry?
Henry refused to confront him with his "sister" Elizabeth of York and also declined help in recognizing him and denouncing him as an imposter from others who had known Richard. Why do you think he did that?
So was he an imposter- a Fleming born in Tournai in 1474? Was he perhaps a bastard son of Edward IV? Or was he Richard, youngest son of Edward? What do you think 8) 8)
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Offline bell_the_cat

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Re: Perkin Warbeck.. Was he, or wasn't he..
« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2005, 11:42:39 AM »
Just a thought, but do we know where PW is buried? If so it would be easy to compare DNA samples with say EoY. This would decide the issue for once and for all!

...or maybe not. :-/
Never put off until tomorrow what you can put off until the day after tomorrow. (Mark Twain)

Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: Perkin Warbeck.. Was he, or wasn't he..
« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2005, 12:41:24 PM »
I would have to say that I am almost certain he was not the Duke of York.

I can't answer as to Henry VII's actions, but the fact that Warbeck couldn't account for his escape was very fishy. And also, Duchess Margaret's support can't really count for anything, since she aided so many of his kind the Tudors called her 'Aunt to all the Pretenders!'

Perhaps, perhaps, he was a bastard son born to Edward IV, since he resembled him. And maybe, just maybe - this probably sounds silly - Henry VII didn't want Elizabeth of York to see him because he was afraid that she wanted so much to believe her brothers were alive that she would sort of convince herself that Warbeck was Richard. Does this sound plausible, or am I crazy?  ???
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
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Offline Elisabeth

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Re: Perkin Warbeck.. Was he, or wasn't he..
« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2005, 01:17:32 PM »
You make sense to me, Prince. I think another reason Henry didn't allow his wife to see PW was simply that he didn't want to put her through any unnecessary pain. It's quite possible that he had been informed upon ascending the throne (by various people in the "know") that the princes had been murdered. BTW, does anyone know if Henry ever met with PW himself? Or did he find the whole story so implausible that he left his subordinates to deal with it?
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Offline Kimberly

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Re: Perkin Warbeck.. Was he, or wasn't he..
« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2005, 01:25:55 PM »
I too am (almost convinced) that he was an imposter, but that is why I like to look at the arguments as to why he could have been Richard. It makes for a very interesting discussion 8)
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Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: Perkin Warbeck.. Was he, or wasn't he..
« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2005, 01:29:45 PM »
It certainly does Kim!

BTW, Elisabeth, I agree with you in that Henry probably wanted to save Elisabeth any pain or suffering. I read about Warbeck in Wikipedia and it doesn't mention Henry ever meeting him . . .
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
-Sherlock Holmes

"Men forget, but never forgive; women forgive, but never forget."

Offline Elisabeth

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Re: Perkin Warbeck.. Was he, or wasn't he..
« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2005, 01:40:46 PM »
It is an interesting topic for a discussion. Does anyone know, what is the evidence that PW was the illegitimate son of Edward IV? Is the putative relationship based only on his apparent physical resemblance to Edward, or were there other factors involved as well? I'm  just wondering, 'cause I've met my fair share of broad and beefy blond Englishmen... it's not an uncommon physical type in the land of Albion!  ;D
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Offline Kimberly

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Re: Perkin Warbeck.. Was he, or wasn't he..
« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2005, 01:42:10 PM »
Here is Mr. Warbeck
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Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: Perkin Warbeck.. Was he, or wasn't he..
« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2005, 01:43:51 PM »
He does look like Edward IV . . . but as to him being Edward's bastard it seems unlikely. I mean, he was born in 1474, right? Edward was king of England by then. Do we know if he visited France/the Low Countries in that year?
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
-Sherlock Holmes

"Men forget, but never forgive; women forgive, but never forget."

Offline Kimberly

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Re: Perkin Warbeck.. Was he, or wasn't he..
« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2005, 01:47:19 PM »
And EdwardIV
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Offline Kimberly

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Re: Perkin Warbeck.. Was he, or wasn't he..
« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2005, 02:00:27 PM »
Quote
Just a thought, but do we know where PW is buried? If so it would be easy to compare DNA samples with say EoY. This would decide the issue for once and for all!

...or maybe not. :-/

Hoohoo my friend I should think the chances of that happening are less than nil. I don't know where he was buried.
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Offline Elisabeth

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Re: Perkin Warbeck.. Was he, or wasn't he..
« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2005, 02:04:16 PM »
There is a resemblance, but I would consider this somewhat suspect, since any portrait of Perkin Warbeck would have been made after he became a claimant to the identity of the Duke of York, and the artist might have deliberately tried to heighten the resemblance between PW and Edward IV. Ordinary people didn't get to have their portraits sketched or painted, so obviously PW was already a prominent person when this sketch was done.
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Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: Perkin Warbeck.. Was he, or wasn't he..
« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2005, 02:08:01 PM »
Yes, Elisabeth, that is a very good point - we can't trust portraits of Warbeck, because unless the artist was unusally honest, they are likely inaccurate. Do we know who painted this one?
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
-Sherlock Holmes

"Men forget, but never forgive; women forgive, but never forget."

Offline Kimberly

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Re: Perkin Warbeck.. Was he, or wasn't he..
« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2005, 02:08:42 PM »
 Absolutely right Elisabeth, I may look like Miss Piggy on valium..but I am definately not related ;) The tragedy of all this though lead to the execution of the poor Earl of Warwick. What a life that sad lad had.
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Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: Perkin Warbeck.. Was he, or wasn't he..
« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2005, 02:10:38 PM »
Quote
Absolutely right Elisabeth, I may look like Miss Piggy on valium..but I am definately not related ;) .


I can't believe a woman with so sweet a nature could look like that!
;D ;D And yes, you're right about Warwick, it is a pity. Still, I don't suppose there was much a difference between life in the Tower and death . . .
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
-Sherlock Holmes

"Men forget, but never forgive; women forgive, but never forget."