Author Topic: Elizabeth I and Henry VIII  (Read 37645 times)

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Offline bell_the_cat

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Re: Elizabeth I and Henry VIII
« Reply #15 on: October 23, 2005, 03:04:13 PM »
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No, I've never found the actual source - a few bios mention how upset Elizabeth was, but can't back it up with anything . . . hmm . . . well, do we know if she and Katherine were close? Or is that unsourced too? Because if they were, it would be perfectly natural for Elizabeth to be upset.


They weren't close but it would be natural for Elizabeth to be upset.

Katherine was executed not because she was proved to have had an affair but because she may have had a relationship before she married, and because it might have looked that she was being unfaithful with her music teacher. All in all it was a mockery of justice (like the trial of Anne Boleyn).
Never put off until tomorrow what you can put off until the day after tomorrow. (Mark Twain)

Offline ilyala

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Re: Elizabeth I and Henry VIII
« Reply #16 on: October 23, 2005, 03:26:34 PM »
nonononono

when katherine was proved to have not been a virgin as married, she was supposed to go to a convent and repent. but then it was proven that she had slept with thomas culpeper as she was married to henry and THEN she was sent to execution. i'm 99% sure she was guilty. whether it was true love or pure silliness i'll leave that to others to decide. but she was guilty, unlike anne.

as for elizabeth's style of ruling, it does resemble henry 7ths more than henry 8ths. everyone gets this idea that henry 7th stood and counted his money every minute of every day. he wasn't like that. yes, he asked for heavy fines for everything everyone did wrong, but it was a diisciplinary action - he was not being listened by his nobles who were seeing him as just another king in a long line of pretenders so he had to make them listen. emptying their pockets was one way of doing that. he could have killed them, just as easily. in this way his method resembles elizabeth's (or more likely her method resembles his :P) in the sense that she only executed the very active catholics, while people who weren't going to anglican church were simply paying fines. they both had to make people listen but they chose the more merciful way out (and if it was gonna get some money in the treasury, why not? :P).

henry 8th was a stubborn guy who wished everything his way. while i'm sure elizabeth wanted everything her way too, she, unlike her father, was smart enough to use less terrory ways of conviction. in the end most of the people ended up convinced that she was right. while henry didn't convince anyone, he was too aggressive and impatient for that. she most definitely resembles her grandfather more than her father in that way. i think it all goes down - again - to her insecurities. she, like her grandfather, grew up in an insecure environment. henry 8th was not so (un)fortunate.
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Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: Elizabeth I and Henry VIII
« Reply #17 on: October 23, 2005, 03:29:04 PM »
Well, they had different methods, as you say ilyala - Henry VIII bullied people until they agreed with him. Elizabeth backed off if they were stubborn, and tried to convince them later, or convinced them by a circuitious (sp?) route. In the long run, she was much more pragmatic and realistic that her father.
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
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Offline ilyala

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Re: Elizabeth I and Henry VIII
« Reply #18 on: October 23, 2005, 03:35:23 PM »
yes, and doesn't that resemble someone else we know... someone whose name starts with h?  ::)
'loving might be a mistake, but it's worth making'
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Offline stacey

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Re: Elizabeth I and Henry VIII
« Reply #19 on: October 24, 2005, 11:53:10 PM »
I'm still wondering about everyone's assumption that Elizabeth would have had no realization of her mother's death (until years later when it was "explained" to her). Yes, she was a very young child, but extremely precocious, and I believe that Anne had been a loving mother to her. I have always thought that Elizabeth WOULD have had some memory of her mother and of her mother's death (if only thru palace gossip or whatever--I also wonder what Kat Ashley said about it if anything!!) As for her relationship to her father--how about the word "complicated"?? I think she admired him in many ways and definitely wanted to be seen as a "true Tudor", certainly she wanted to please him--but going back to what I just said about Anne's execution, I think Elizabeth KNEW her father had killed her mother, and on trumped-up charges at that. Surely on some level she must have felt a great anger towards him--I just don't think she was able to admit it, even to herself. Talk about a dysfunctional family!!!! Elizabeth must have had ENORMOUS inner resources to survive such a childhood and adolescence--much less end up the magnificent Queen she finally became!!
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Offline ilyala

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Re: Elizabeth I and Henry VIII
« Reply #20 on: October 25, 2005, 07:00:00 AM »
i think she was the great queen that she was BECAUSE of that traumatic childhood. whether that included her mother's death, her father's very dominant personality, thomas seymour, the constant exchange of wives... the whole deal. yes, she had a traumatic childhood and that made her careful and prudent and tolerant. and those were her best qualities as a queen
'loving might be a mistake, but it's worth making'
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Offline Silja

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Re: Elizabeth I and Henry VIII
« Reply #21 on: October 31, 2005, 12:06:59 PM »
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 I think Elizabeth KNEW her father had killed her mother, and on trumped-up charges at that.



But can we be so absolutely sure that she herself was  convinced of her mother's total innocence? I wonder. Although it seems likely, we ultimately cannot say. All the biographies I've read come to the conclusion that her view of her mother remains elusive.

Offline ilyala

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Re: Elizabeth I and Henry VIII
« Reply #22 on: November 01, 2005, 06:41:01 AM »
he has tried to restore her mother's image throughout her reign. i think the image was elusive because she didn't know her mother much. but as much as she could during the circumstances, i'm sure she loved her mother
'loving might be a mistake, but it's worth making'
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Offline Silja

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Re: Elizabeth I and Henry VIII
« Reply #23 on: November 01, 2005, 12:11:32 PM »
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he has tried to restore her mother's image throughout her reign.


I guess you meant she  ;). As for her "restoring" her mother's image, what are you referring to exactly? She certainly favoured her mother's family, but she did not in any way publicly rehabilitate her or even say she believed in her innocence.

Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: Elizabeth I and Henry VIII
« Reply #24 on: November 01, 2005, 01:03:45 PM »
She adopted one of Anne's mottos - 'Always the same'.
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
-Sherlock Holmes

"Men forget, but never forgive; women forgive, but never forget."

Offline ilyala

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Re: Elizabeth I and Henry VIII
« Reply #25 on: November 02, 2005, 01:38:12 AM »
it was throughout elisabeth's reign that the image of anne as a protestant martyr came up. this image is pretty much rejected today but i have read a couple of books that portrait anne as the poor woman who had no choice in front of henry's wrath and had to marry him and she was such a faithfull and nice woman... all that part of interpration of history started during elisabeth's reign. i'm sure if elisabeth hadn't wanted it it wouldn't have happened.
'loving might be a mistake, but it's worth making'
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Offline cebi26

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Re: Elizabeth I and Henry VIII
« Reply #26 on: November 26, 2009, 04:02:28 PM »
What was the relationship of Henry VIII to Elizabeth during his marriage to Anne Boleyn and after? Even him being so obsessed with having a son, he loved Mary and her?

Offline Yelena Aleksandrovna

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Re: Elizabeth I and Henry VIII
« Reply #27 on: November 27, 2009, 10:57:29 AM »
I knew that in the first years of his marriage with Katherine of Aragon Henry loved Mary but
after when he saw that Katherine wouldn't have a son he lost a lot of his interest in his daughter.
I think that something like this happened with Elisabeth, mainly after Anne Boleyn's death and also
after the birth of his only son, but really I don't know how it was?
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Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: Elizabeth I and Henry VIII
« Reply #28 on: November 28, 2009, 03:24:56 PM »
When Elizabeth was born, although Henry was disappointed about her sex, he treated the birth as a triumph, and showed great public affection for Elizabeth. While Anne Boleyn was alive, Elizabeth was secure, but after Anne's execution Elizabeth was declared a bastard (like Mary had been before her). But Jane Seymour - and to a greater extent Katherine Parr - made a big effort to reconcile Henry to his two daughters, and by the time of his death Henry was fond of Elizabeth and proud of her intelligence and wit.  Of course, all his children - with the possible exception of Mary - viewed Henry more as a distant, terrifying figure than an affectionate, 'hands-on' dad.

When she became queen, Elizabeth delighted in referring to herself as 'Great Harry's Daughter'.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2009, 03:28:02 PM by Prince_Lieven »
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
-Sherlock Holmes

"Men forget, but never forgive; women forgive, but never forget."

Offline cebi26

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Re: Elizabeth I and Henry VIII
« Reply #29 on: December 02, 2009, 02:31:51 PM »
Thanks for clarifying my doubts!