Author Topic: Riding his sled/sledge down the stairs at Tobolsk  (Read 55352 times)

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Offline blessOTMA

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Re: Riding his sled/sledge down the stairs at Tobolsk
« Reply #120 on: June 01, 2010, 08:07:08 PM »
This is unbelievable! You mean live ammo??  This takes OTMA rough housing to a  new level! lol! Why would it be seen as Alexis trying to commit suicide, when he left! Also,  Olga is famous for having a gun, but it seems she and the small pair were familiar with firearms! I can't believe their parents would allow  live ammo...perhaps the"  rotten pistols " shot potato pellets??

"Give my love to all who remember me."

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Offline Sarushka

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Re: Riding his sled/sledge down the stairs at Tobolsk
« Reply #121 on: June 01, 2010, 08:35:48 PM »
This is unbelievable! You mean live ammo?? 

No probably just toy guns. It was right after Christmas, remember.
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aleksandr pavlovich

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Re: Riding his sled/sledge down the stairs at Tobolsk
« Reply #122 on: June 01, 2010, 08:54:53 PM »
Thank you, "Sarushka," for the speedy references. ( It is interesting to note that "Grouseheart" has not replied to my queries. )  I quite agree with "blessOTMA", being a shooter myself, that at the very, very MOST, the "ammo" was not live, and it is totally realistic to believe that the "weapons" were "play-noise" items.  It is certainly seriously beyond normal rationale/belief that anything beyond this would be allowed by responsible adults/parents, especially with the fragile condition of the Heir, and the inherent future of the other Imperial children. Thus I can NOT in all seriousness, believe that it is anything more than "play" with non-lethal replicas.  I think that "rotten" is used in the English way to denote "disgusting," etc.  Relating to weapons handling/utilization of pistols/shoulder arms:  Even in posed pictures, the Heir is NOT shown with a sidearm (pistol), but in several cases HOLDING a rifle and posing with a (captured) machinegun on tripod at the Palace. As I have commented before (having fired many different military weapons, INCLUDING the Russian Mosin standard military rifle of WW I era), the Heir would not be able to take the recoil of a standard shoulder arm, for fear of brusing the shoulder. There apparently are NO records of ANY of the Imperial children going and actively participating (with firearms) in an organized hunt. The one actual handling of an unquestionably real pistol is the incident involving the GD Olga N.  IMO, the idea of "suicide", or a "death wish," on the part of the Heir being involved here with lethal firearms, is the stuff of which "movies/tv programs" are made ..... and unfortunately believed .... and repeated !   Regards,  AP
« Last Edit: June 01, 2010, 09:13:50 PM by aleksandr pavlovich »

Offline Sarushka

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Re: Riding his sled/sledge down the stairs at Tobolsk
« Reply #123 on: June 01, 2010, 09:22:08 PM »
( It is interesting to note that "Grouseheart" has not replied to my queries. )

Gorseheart hasn't logged in since you made your queries, so I don't think we can read anything into his silence on the matter.

At any rate, I think it's time we all returned to topic.
THE LOST CROWN: A Novel of Romanov Russia -- now in paperback!
"A dramatic, powerful narrative and a masterful grasp of life in this vanished world." ~Greg King

aleksandr pavlovich

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Re: Riding his sled/sledge down the stairs at Tobolsk
« Reply #124 on: June 01, 2010, 09:25:31 PM »
Thanks! With your clearly referenced input, I believe that we have pretty much "cleared" the "darkened room/gun" segue !   Regards,  AP
« Last Edit: June 01, 2010, 09:31:41 PM by aleksandr pavlovich »

Offline Gorseheart

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Re: Riding his sled/sledge down the stairs at Tobolsk
« Reply #125 on: June 02, 2010, 08:19:40 AM »
Alexandra to Nicholas, 4 Jan 1916:

"The Children are eating & fire away with their rotten pistols."

(Complete Wartime Correspondence, pg 345)

Thank you for quoting it! (Finally, someone on my side!)
"Today is like yesterday and tomorrow will be the same as today.  God, help us! Take pity of us!"~ Tsarevich Alexei Nikolaevich Romanov


Offline Kalafrana

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Re: Riding his sled/sledge down the stairs at Tobolsk
« Reply #126 on: June 02, 2010, 09:04:09 AM »
Cap pistols perhaps? For non-UK forumeers, these tookl a roll of waxed paper with spots of gunpowder at intervals. When the pistol was fired, the hammer hit the gunpowder and produced a satisfactory bang, a bit of smoke and a gunpowder smell.

I use the past tense because such things are now thoroughly politically incorrect and I haven't seen one in years.

Ann

Offline blessOTMA

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Re: Riding his sled/sledge down the stairs at Tobolsk
« Reply #127 on: June 02, 2010, 01:28:23 PM »
Ann, I had a toy gun like that. The caps came in red rolls. The smoke and noise was amazingly life like. I think it very likely Alexandra called them "rotten" pistols exactly because of the noise they  made. That would cause someone resting to dislike them intensely.(  But it sounds like fun! lol! )  Live ammo would not be needed to make rushing around in a darkened room seem dangerous to Alexis. All he would have to do was bump into something for this game to have a bad end. 

"Give my love to all who remember me."

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Offline Gorseheart

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Re: Riding his sled/sledge down the stairs at Tobolsk
« Reply #128 on: January 16, 2012, 03:23:41 PM »
I'm a she, btw Sarushka ^^;  When I was little we had those little guns too! I always thought they were real when my neighbor fired them at me..... It has a tad bit of gun powder in it. They are called cap guns: http://oranges-world.com/data_images/cap-gun.jpg

According to http://www.drtoy.org/toy_history/toy_history_timeline.html Cap guns have been around since 1886 and maybe before that, but in more of an American market, because after the Civil War, gun factories had too little demand for the guns they made, so they turned into toy manufacturing.

As quoted from: http://www.mechanicalbanks.org/scrapbook/1970s/pages/1976_cromwell.htm

"Lastly we come to the manufacture of cast iron cap pistols. The company catalog of 1859 lists "Fire Cracker Pistols". As the firm expanded in the mid-nineteenth century it produced more elaborate models. There were given names. There were also novelty pistols. In the 1890’s Stevens made a cap pistol shaped like a sea serpent with a cap-exploding jaw. Another had a monkey who, at the press of the trigger, banged a coconut down on the cap. These fine early pistols are collectors items today.

In later years Russell A. Frisbie (grandson of Russell) and Herman Lorentz designed toy pistols. A 1921 newspaper item states "Herman Lorentz of the J. & E. Stevens Co. has invented a new type cap pistol on which he has been granted a patent. The pistol differs from the ones that have been turned out by the Stevens Co., inasmuch as it is made of sheet metal and the parts are stamped out by a press. They are much neater in finish than the cast iron ones."

After 1928 the company devoted itself exclusively to the manufacture of cap pistols. For some years the factory prospered under the able direction of the late Russell A. Frisbie. At one time he stated he felt his masterpiece to be a repeating cap pistol in which the caps were fed through a slot in the hammer rather than through the fixed parts of the toy.

As late as 1940 the demand for cap pistols was so great it took six tons of metal a day to maintain the production of this single foundry, where one hundred men made them. However, with the onset of World War II the fires were cooled and the factory closed by the decision of Russell A. Frisbie, because of the government’s need for iron and labor difficulties experienced at the plant. The business was sold to Buckley Brothers, of New York, who continued to make cap pistols there until 1950."
"Today is like yesterday and tomorrow will be the same as today.  God, help us! Take pity of us!"~ Tsarevich Alexei Nikolaevich Romanov


Offline Inok Nikolai

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Re: Alexei's Fall at Tobolsk
« Reply #129 on: February 16, 2012, 10:15:22 PM »

I've been comparing documents from the IF's imprisonment in Tobolsk and found and interesting bit of information regarding Aleskei's sledding on the steps and his last attack of hemophilia:

I'd always thought the sled ride and the final hemorrhage happened within 24 hours of each other. Massie and other sources certainly present the events that way. However, according to Aleksei's own diary, he received the toy sledge and boat on 25 March. He and Kolya spent that day playing with them on the steps. According to Alexandra's diary, Aleksei's hemorrhage began on the night of 29-30 March, a full four days later. In the meantime, Aleksei and Kolya practiced archery and broke up pools of ice in the yard. Alexandra attributes the hemorrhage to a bad cough, which she mentions for the first time on 30 March.

I'm no medical expert, but IMO this four-day delay between Aleksei sledding down the stairs and developing his last hemorrhage makes it less likely that the two events were directly linked. Particularly since he was active and apparently in good health between the two events.

An added bit of information:

In her letter to A. V. Syroboyarsky of March 30 / April 12, 1918, the Empress wrote:
"...I have been sitting with the Little One, since he is lying in bed. Lately he has been coughing severely whenever he goes for walks, and the coughing has caused him some mild internal pains — but it is nothing. All he needs to do is lie quietly in bed and then it won’t hurt and it will soon pass."

(Not sure what time of day it was when she wrote that.)

« Last Edit: February 16, 2012, 10:18:26 PM by Inok Nikolai »
инок Николай

Offline bkohatl

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Re: Riding his sled/sledge down the stairs at Tobolsk
« Reply #130 on: December 30, 2012, 09:28:20 AM »
I think that the real answer is yes it probably happened. As to why, that is the interesting question. I think that being deprived of his snow mountain to sled on may have been the last straw. He and the family were in "prison", with the passage of time that became more and more apparent, but worse, they had to know that their situation was deteriorating. Their guards, less and less friendly. Did they give up hope? Quite possibly. Alexei and Olga's actions seem, to me, to indicate that they knew what awaited them. A child of 14 is less likely to keep his guard up 24/7. The pressure must have been unbearable for all of them. Maybe Alexei, for one moment, said to Hell with it.