Author Topic: Grand Duchess and other possible suitors - what if..  (Read 105418 times)

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Offline Martyn

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Re: Grand Duchess and other possible suitors - what if..
« Reply #15 on: September 03, 2004, 03:41:50 AM »
I stand reproved Grandduchessella.  Your romantic notions will be respected totally from now on.
'For a galant spirit there can never be defeat'....Wallis Windsor

'The important things is not what they think of me, but what I think of them.'......QV

Offline Angie_H

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Re: Grand Duchess and other possible suitors - what if..
« Reply #16 on: September 03, 2004, 05:40:44 AM »
Does anyone have pics of Wilhelm and Ella together?

elisa_1872

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Re: Grand Duchess and other possible suitors - what if..
« Reply #17 on: September 03, 2004, 03:50:05 PM »
Hi Angie!

Hmm.. the only ones i can think of that show them both
are the famous Coburg group photographs in 1894, with Ella at the very top, and the Kaiser on the bottom left.

PS) I do remember in "Royalty in Photographs" a caption
"This picture is interesting in that it was one of the few pictures that Prince Wilhelm took.. with Princess Ella.."
It was photographed by Voigt, and appears to be a gathering in Germany, as there are the Kaiserin Friedrich, German dukes, etc. But it appears to have been commissioned by Wilhelm, as i've peered and can't make him out in the photo.

Offline princessalice

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Re: Grand Duchess and other possible suitors - what if..
« Reply #18 on: September 03, 2004, 05:25:42 PM »
as the Empress Frederick is one of my favorites, I always feel badly when folks put so much blame on her for the way Wilhelm II turned out.  i believe much of one's basic personality is born with them, of course, childhood and the way you are treated by the world does have some say in it, too.  but, i think, all things considered, Vicky did her best by all her children.  Wilhelm was so controlled by his grandfather, and later, of course, as  puppet of Bismark, that I don't think Vicky or Fritz had much of a chance with him anyway....Vicky was so young and most of the court was against her efforts.  of course, she was not perfect, but i think she has always gotten the bad end from everyone....
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Offline grandduchessella

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Re: Grand Duchess and other possible suitors - what if..
« Reply #19 on: September 03, 2004, 06:48:03 PM »
Quote
Hi Angie!

Hmm.. the only ones i can think of that show them both
are the famous Coburg group photographs in 1894, with Ella at the very top, and the Kaiser on the bottom left.

PS) I do remember in "Royalty in Photographs" a caption
"This picture is interesting in that it was one of the few pictures that Prince Wilhelm took.. with Princess Ella.."
It was photographed by Voigt, and appears to be a gathering in Germany, as there are the Kaiserin Friedrich, German dukes, etc. But it appears to have been commissioned by Wilhelm, as i've peered and can't make him out in the photo.


Well, there's Tuxen painting of QV's Jubilee--they're not too far apart there. There's also a photo of Henry & Irene's wedding and I'm pretty sure it's Ella standing right next to William. (It's posted in different thread--maybe under the Empress Frederick one?) I was lucky enough to find this photo in a sketch form and then later in photo form.

The women are from left: VMH, Louise Duchess of Connaught, Ella, Irene, Moretta & Vicky. I don't know all the men, but Duke of Connaught is directly behind Louise, William I is in front, Bernard of Saxe-Meiningen behind him (Charly's husband), William is back row center, Louis is last one in dorrway with Fritz and then Alfred Duke of Edinburgh/Coburg.
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elisa_1872

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Re: Grand Duchess and other possible suitors - what if..
« Reply #20 on: September 04, 2004, 10:05:02 AM »
Oh wonderful Grandduchessella! Your memory is more than ten times better :D
I too took a look at the photo of the wedding, and always thought that could be Ella in the right side of the picture, it looks so like her, especially the court dress photos.
Thanks again!

Offline Martyn

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Re: Grand Duchess and other possible suitors - what if..
« Reply #21 on: September 06, 2004, 09:35:42 AM »
What a fantastic photo!  That really is marvellous.  Great to see VMH  dressed up for the occasion.
'For a galant spirit there can never be defeat'....Wallis Windsor

'The important things is not what they think of me, but what I think of them.'......QV

Offline Angie_H

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Re: Grand Duchess and other possible suitors - what if..
« Reply #22 on: September 06, 2004, 09:49:11 AM »
I'm re-reading Greg's book on Alexandra and they mention in there how when they visited with their cousins Wilhelm was the least liked. I'm just surprised with the way they did take pics back then that they didn't take one of the cousins together when they were younger
Angie

Offline grandduchessella

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Re: Grand Duchess and other possible suitors - what if..
« Reply #23 on: September 06, 2004, 03:07:29 PM »
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I'm re-reading Greg's book on Alexandra and they mention in there how when they visited with their cousins Wilhelm was the least liked. I'm just surprised with the way they did take pics back then that they didn't take one of the cousins together when they were younger
Angie


Considering how unliked he was I'm not!  ;)  Actually though, I wonder how many pictures might be out there. Vicky & Alice were very close but I don't know how much William might have visisted en famille since he was off to school & military training at a relatively young age. More photos tended to be done when groups met up--probably because they were such a hassle back then.
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Offline gem_10

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Re: Grand Duchess and other possible suitors - what if..
« Reply #24 on: September 07, 2004, 09:44:26 AM »
Like grandduchessella I've been thinking about the doomed romance between Ella and Willy especially when I consider how sweet and caring Willy when it comes to Ella. Ella would've been a better wife for Willy than Dona and Willy would've been a better husband than Sergei. He was romantic and capable of showing affections to Ella. Ella deserves a loving and affectionate husband. Sergei loved her in his own way but I don't like the way he treated her (he treated her as a child). Willy, i think, will never treat Ella that way. He adores her so much and I think if he had been her husband, he would've worship her like a goddess! :) I also believe that Ella can change Wilhelm's attitude. It's rather sad to think that she had no influence on Sergei. But then if Ella married Wilhelm and became Empress of Germany, of course her destiny would be different. There will be no "Great Matushka" who will help the poor and the sick in Russia. There will be no Martha and Mary Convent and of course, Ella will not die a martyr's death. There will be no St. Elizabeth to remember and venerate. So even I deeply regret the failed romance between Ella and Wily, it is still best that things happen the way they are.

Offline ashanti01

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Re: Grand Duchess and other possible suitors - what if..
« Reply #25 on: September 28, 2004, 09:03:50 PM »
I had Ella married Willy, things would have been very different in the long run

Did Willy ever mention Ella or his feeling for her to anyone or in letters?

Offline HerrKaiser

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Re: Grand Duchess and other possible suitors - what if..
« Reply #26 on: October 28, 2004, 09:41:42 AM »
Ella truly was a perfect match for W. With sisters as wives of the two great European empires, a greater effort would have been in place to ensure compromise and peace. W was like a spoiled child who needed some strength at his side...who he chose. He was rebellious against his parents, but not those who he picked as his inner circle. In fact, he was quite accomodating and yeilding. Such a union would likely have furthered the popularity of the German royal family which was almost completely shouldered by Princess Cecilie. A mother-in-law/daughter-in-law combination of Cecilie and Ella would have been awesome (assuming W and Ella's son would have picked Cecilie!). The English royals would have been most pleased.
And, Ella was not the reason she and Sergei were childless. Sergei was most assuredly gay and, hence, not very likely to have spent much "romance" time poor Ella.
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Offline Namarolf

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Re: Grand Duchess and other possible suitors - what if..
« Reply #27 on: October 28, 2004, 12:22:03 PM »
Is there any document (diaries, letters, etc.) to confirm that the lack of children was due to Sergey and not to Ella? As far as I know, there is still no proof about Sergey's alleged homosexuality. Anyway, being a homosexual doesn't mean you can't be a father... We know for sure that K. R. was a homosexual, and yet he had a big loving family and was a much better father and husband than his own dad ever was.


Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: Grand Duchess and other possible suitors - what if..
« Reply #28 on: October 28, 2004, 01:42:16 PM »
Although it is my personal opinion that Serge was probably gay, I agree it would have had nothing to do with his ability to father children.
However, the sad reality was [as still is in many cases] that any problem with propagation seemed to have been blamed on the woman, whether valid or not. Chauvanistic and unfair, but sadly true.
In such stud farms as the royal families, this would have been overly stressed, I am sure.
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Offline HerrKaiser

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Re: Grand Duchess and other possible suitors - what if..
« Reply #29 on: October 28, 2004, 02:13:23 PM »
Yes, of course, tons of homosexuals married and had children, royal and commoner, then and now. "Proof" of Sergei's interests are, as with most pre-1970's lifestyles, are well locked up in a closet. Hearsay among people who I know who were global travellers and elitists during the 20's and 30's have said "everyone" knew about Sergei. Empirically, Ella became more and more committed to her faith and religion, a common result of a spouse who is not the target of the other's affection. From all accounts of how they lived, their relationship was greatly platonic. Ella wanted to be near her sister, and probably considered marriage and all that went with it, secondary.
All that being said, she and W would have made a smashing couple. He with his pomp and lofiness and her with her subtley serene and intense beauty and manner. Semi opposites that could have created a massively impressive court. Had Ella been the Kaiserin, she very likely would have picked up the agenda of Vicky. She very much loved Vicky, and any children would have had a better relationship with their grandmother.
By the by, W is also not without rumors of being gay. In his case, he clearly met the challenge of producing a large family.
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