Author Topic: Grand Duchess and other possible suitors - what if..  (Read 101831 times)

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Offline Kalafrana

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Re: Grand Duchess and other possible suitors - what if..
« Reply #240 on: November 10, 2012, 10:17:27 AM »
'It has been quite a while since I read Prince Yussupov's  "Lost Splendour,"  but I seem to recall (and I will gladly stand corrected) that Yussupov was childishly fascinated by the "stays" that the Grand Duke seemingly wore in his (tailored/fitted) uniform jacket, and thus began to touch the apparent slightly visual impression/s of them through the fabric, much to the irritation of the Grand Duke.'

Ah yes, I remember that now. When I read it I was not at all surprised that the Grand Duke would be irritated by this spoilt and cheeky little so-and-so trying to find his stays!

Ann

Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: Grand Duchess and other possible suitors - what if..
« Reply #241 on: November 10, 2012, 02:26:40 PM »
Not surprising since Serge had to tolerate his brothers making fun of his corsets growing up. Felix is not doing something out of the ordinary. Also it seems like Serge was very sensitive to wearing corsets and that does prevent casual attachments as it would be shocking to to him undress his corsets,,,

Offline Kalafrana

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Re: Grand Duchess and other possible suitors - what if..
« Reply #242 on: November 11, 2012, 03:46:59 AM »
Serge's brothers making fun of the corsets was one thing, and something Serge had to put up with. But an outrageously spoilt small boy who was not even a relation was quite another. It would be very surprising if Serge had been happy about it!

Clearly, the matter does not tell us anything about Serge's sexual orientation.

Ann

Offline Svetabel

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Re: Grand Duchess and other possible suitors - what if..
« Reply #243 on: November 11, 2012, 01:01:58 PM »
Please stay in topic. This discussion about GD Sergei's orientation is really getting annoying, we had a good stodge of it in every possible topic related to Grand Duke and his wife.

Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: Grand Duchess and other possible suitors - what if..
« Reply #244 on: November 11, 2012, 01:20:52 PM »
Annoying is putting it mildly. Someone is obsessed with the sex lives of dead GranDukes and is showing more than a prurient interst with speculation, gossip and plain wishfull thinking. IMO. the topic should be closed, it is disgusting with all the unproven undocumented accusations.  This is showing more of one poster's sexuality, or lack of, than any dead grand Duke's.
  Another thing Louis XVI & MA were not infertile. The delay was a medical impediment, once easily taken care of, the had 3 children together,. More idle gossip. That situation is well documented in many sources.
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Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: Grand Duchess and other possible suitors - what if..
« Reply #245 on: November 11, 2012, 01:39:34 PM »
I think it is part of the mystery of the dynamics of that marriage. The speculation did not begin here. It was evident even in those days. Queen Victoria was concerned enough to question her granddaughter about it. Ella herself tried to explain the situation, but not to everybody's satisfaction. Most would agree that Ella had picked for her husband who was very complicated.

Offline Svetabel

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Re: Grand Duchess and other possible suitors - what if..
« Reply #246 on: November 11, 2012, 02:04:36 PM »
I think it is part of the mystery of the dynamics of that marriage. The speculation did not begin here. It was evident even in those days. Queen Victoria was concerned enough to question her granddaughter about it. Ella herself tried to explain the situation, but not to everybody's satisfaction. Most would agree that Ella had picked for her husband who was very complicated.

Eric, just stop here, it's enough. I asked for staying in topic. Some more on sex life of Grand Duke and the topic will be closed. And your posts will be deleted.

Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: Grand Duchess and other possible suitors - what if..
« Reply #247 on: November 11, 2012, 04:18:52 PM »
QV was essentially against ALL Romanov marriages. She felt they considered themselves "superior" to her family, both men and women. I can see why, the S-C-G s were a rather provincial lot compared to the lavish court of  the Romanovs. Verging on the Byzantine.
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Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: Grand Duchess and other possible suitors - what if..
« Reply #248 on: November 11, 2012, 05:29:36 PM »
I think that is the reason this topic is about what kind of husband Ella could have chosen if she didn't choose Serge. I don't think apart from Wilhelm & Fritz of Baden, there is much other choice in her age group. John Rohl's book on Wilhelm indicated that it was he who broke with Ella. I think she never did gave him any encouragement. Was Fritz of Baden the other suitor for Alicky as well ?

Offline DssofBelem

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Re: Grand Duchess and other possible suitors - what if..
« Reply #249 on: November 27, 2012, 09:13:03 AM »
Was Fritz of Baden the other suitor for Alicky as well ?

Probably no. Kind of, he married when Alicky was... 13. But I heard of Max of Baden as a suitor for her. He was born in 1867 and was heir to the Grand Duchy as Fritz of Baden was childless. But there's another tread on him and on Alix's suitors. Back to topic.

Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: Grand Duchess and other possible suitors - what if..
« Reply #250 on: November 27, 2012, 02:05:05 PM »
Yes. That was Max not Fritz. Fritz was the nephew of Empress Augusta, who hoped that Ella would pick him or Willy. She gave Ella the cold shoulder when she turned both of them down. Although in John Rohl's extensive study on Willy, it was he who turned Ella down.

Offline grandduchessella

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Re: Grand Duchess and other possible suitors - what if..
« Reply #251 on: November 27, 2012, 04:17:30 PM »
It was interesting to read of Crown Princess Victoria's commissioned report regarding a possible marriage between Ella and Wilhelm. She was right to have concerns over the possibility of hemophilia. I guess it was considered a safe enough risk to allow Henry to marry Irene for love since, by 1888, Wilhelm had several sons. The German court seemed more on top of the idea of possible dynastic considerations to marrying a princess with a hemophilia risk.

I've only read about Wilhelm and Fritz Baden for Ella's hand, pre-marriage. However, a newspaper reported a rumor of a possible 'remarriage' for the widowed Grand Duchess to Grand Duke Nicholas N. It was reported in 1906, after her mourning period but before his marriage in April 1907. That paper tried to marry the 'unhappily' previously married Grand Duchess off rather quickly!
« Last Edit: November 28, 2012, 10:20:19 AM by grandduchessella »
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Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: Grand Duchess and other possible suitors - what if..
« Reply #252 on: November 28, 2012, 12:50:52 AM »
I think Vicky knew the risk as Willy was the heir to the throne. The Hohenzollern dodged a bullet with "the cow from Holstein" as Bismark put it. Ella did not appear to be quite moved by the loss of dynastic alliance. She was already in love with Serge I think.

Yes. Odd to think Ella would wed another Romanov ! 

Offline Olga Maria

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Re: Grand Duchess and other possible suitors - what if..
« Reply #253 on: October 23, 2013, 08:51:37 PM »
Weren't there other (rejected) suitors aside from Willy and Fritz of Baden?

I don't know every male member of royal/princely/noble families of EUrope but I assume there were a lot of eligible contemporaries from those families who QV might have suggested to be Ella's future husband or had directly courted her.
It would be interesting to know if there were others because it surprises me only 3 men (Serge & the 2 above) venture for her heart, or were in a way attempted to be paired up with her.

And...

As I was reading the posts that talk about Willy here, I eventually felt pity for him. So for this unrequited love, I want to know if there were any diary entries &/or letter excerpts of Ella or Willy, or other's reminiscences that reveal Ella's reaction/s on Willy courting her.
It may be easily assumed she felt annoyed of how persistent he was, but I also think she might have felt frightened, indifferent, or maybe touched of his efforts.

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Offline grandduchessella

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Re: Grand Duchess and other possible suitors - what if..
« Reply #254 on: October 23, 2013, 11:15:09 PM »
From everything I've read, she wasn't too keen on it. I think there were a couple of other names floated by Wilhelm and Fritz were the most notable. She was engaged fairly early (around 19) and married at 20 so many prospects were probably just in the 'casually mentioned' stage.

Two other admirers included Lord Charles Montagu, the second son of the 7th Duke of Manchester, and Henry Wilson, later a distinguished soldier. Montagu's mother was the famous German-born 'Double Duchess' (of Manchester and then Devonshire) Countess Luise Friederike Auguste von Alten. His brother-in-law was the Duke of Hamilton (descended like 'good Fritz' from the Badens--Hamilton's mother was Princess Marie of Baden) and his sister-in-law was the famously welathy Consuelo Iznaga. Henry Wilson, like his early crush Ella, would meet a violent end--assassinated by the IRA in 1922. Interestingly, one of his military assignments took him to Russia on the eve of the Russian Revolution where he met the Tsar and toured some of the larger cities, worried about the food shortages. He's buried in St Paul's Cathedral.

Even Wilhelm's feelings have been somewhat exaggerated, I think. He certainly had all the passion of an early love but he also moved on pretty quickly, no matter what he later said. And Ella WAS only 14 at the time--much like George V's early love of his cousin Marie of Edinburgh. In August 1878, Wilhelm switched his affections to Dona and in May 1879, Wilhelm, in a letter to his Aunt Augusta flatly denied he'd ever been interested in Ella. Letters also seem to indicate the Hessians were much more in favor of this match than previously speculated whereas Vicky was dead-set against it because of the closeness of their relationship (and commissioned a study about the possibility of first cousin relationships bringing hemophilia into the family--something that would play out with Henry & Irene though their closeness didn't cause the disease). Alice, Fritz and the Prussian grandparents were pro-Ella/Willy while Vicky and his Aunt Helena (also aunt to Dona) were pro-Dona. One more thing for the family to squabble over!
« Last Edit: October 23, 2013, 11:41:06 PM by grandduchessella »
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