Author Topic: The Yusupov fortune before 1917 - richer than Romanovs?  (Read 31249 times)

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Offline lancashireladandre

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Re: The Yusupov fortune before 1917 - richer than Romanovs?
« Reply #30 on: November 06, 2005, 03:31:15 AM »
I agree with your arguement. The last Tsar's sister certainly thought they were far richer.

james_h

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Re: The Yusupov fortune before 1917 - richer than Romanovs?
« Reply #31 on: November 06, 2005, 11:51:00 PM »

What would the Tsars sister know? Only Three people knew the true extent of the Tsar's wealth, Olga was not one of them!

Had the revolution not occured I would agree with you stance completely. But remember the  Tsar was the state. He could have sold the Winter Palace if he chose to but it would be self damaging...it was needed ( as a visual manifestation) to inhance his power.

Plus please remember that the Tsar could have confiscated the entire wealth of the Yusupov's at whim, he did not even need to give a reason. Had he done so, would have caused an immence scandle and possibly procurred a revolution in as much of Tsar vs Aristocracy.

I belive that the Stroganoff were wealthier than the Yusupov, at one time in Russian History the Stroganoff's were paying a quater of all tax in the empire. That was a financial position the Yusupov's never attained.

Ultimately to gauge the wealth you would have to estimate the Liquidated value of all assets of both families. I do mean all.

Offline lancashireladandre

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Re: The Yusupov fortune before 1917 - richer than Romanovs?
« Reply #32 on: November 07, 2005, 02:27:51 AM »
Quote
What would the Tsars sister know? Only Three people knew the true extent of the Tsar's wealth, Olga was not one of them!

Had the revolution not occured I would agree with you stance completely. But remember the  Tsar was the state. He could have sold the Winter Palace if he chose to but it would be self damaging...it was needed ( as a visual manifestation) to inhance his power.

Plus please remember that the Tsar could have confiscated the entire wealth of the Yusupov's at whim, he did not even need to give a reason. Had he done so, would have caused an immence scandle and possibly procurred a revolution in as much of Tsar vs Aristocracy.

I belive that the Stroganoff were wealthier than the Yusupov, at one time in Russian History the Stroganoff's were paying a quater of all tax in the empire. That was a financial position the Yusupov's never attained.

Ultimately to gauge the wealth you would have to estimate the Liquidated value of all assets of both families. I do mean all.

By the turn of the 20th century, the great Stroganov fortune had been divided amongst the heirs of the last Count (principally his grandaughters :- Princess Scherbatova & Madame Rodzianko -nee Princess Galitzine). This left the Youssoupoff fortune with few if any rivals.I read somewhere that in 1914 the income was equivilant to  ONE TON of gold.....That in a year interrupted in mid stream by the upheaval of war .The comparisons will always be there just as today they are between various magnates but the fact is that the Tsars personal fortune in 1917 was barely double the amount what his neice Irina had been promised as a annuity in her marriage contract of 1914 !!!!!

Offline TampaBay

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Re: The Yusupov fortune before 1917 - richer than Romanovs?
« Reply #33 on: November 07, 2005, 07:03:37 PM »
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What would the Tsars sister know? Only Three people knew the true extent of the Tsar's wealth, Olga was not one of them!

I do mean all.


Who are the three people?

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Offline TampaBay

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Re: The Yusupov fortune before 1917 - richer than Romanovs?
« Reply #34 on: November 07, 2005, 07:08:22 PM »
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The comparisons will always be there just as today they are between various magnates but the fact is that the Tsars personal fortune in 1917 was barely double the amount what his neice Irina had been promised as a annuity in her marriage contract of 1914 !!!!!


What was her annuity amount in rubles and USD at the time of her marriage.

I read somewhere that Grand Duchess Marie who married Alfred of England, Duke of Edinburgh had the largest marriage contract/dowry EVER!  I also read her father Tsar Alexander II continued to give her substanial monies and gifts on top of this contract up until the time of his death!

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« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by TampaBay »
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Offline lancashireladandre

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Re: The Yusupov fortune before 1917 - richer than Romanovs?
« Reply #35 on: November 08, 2005, 07:42:50 AM »
I think the details of the marriage contract came from Radzinsky's Rasputin ;the final word. Will have to check



;

james_h

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Re: The Yusupov fortune before 1917 - richer than Romanovs?
« Reply #36 on: November 08, 2005, 11:35:11 AM »


Sorry, I lied. It appears "knowledge of the tsars finances were deliberately confined to about two of three poeple at the court of tsarskoe selo, One or Two people  at the state bank and and whom so ever was the current finance minister." = 6 people.


1917 New York Times estimate of tsars wealth.....

"At the peak of Tsarist power, and lumping together everything that he controlled, even including church property, the paper said he could be estimated to be worth between $10,000 million and $30,000 million."

That's 1917USD$



james_h

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Re: The Yusupov fortune before 1917 - richer than Romanovs?
« Reply #37 on: November 08, 2005, 11:38:43 AM »
Quote

Sorry, I lied. It appears "knowledge of the tsars finances were deliberately confined to about two of three poeple at the court of tsarskoe selo, One or Two people  at the state bank and and whom so ever was the current finance minister." = 6 people.


Perhaps only 2 of these aformentioned people knew the full extent, then of course you would add the tsar himself = 3

james_h

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Re: The Yusupov fortune before 1917 - richer than Romanovs?
« Reply #38 on: November 08, 2005, 11:57:01 AM »
[
Quote
1917 New York Times estimate of tsars wealth.....

"At the peak of Tsarist power, and lumping together everything that he controlled, even including church property, the paper said he could be estimated to be worth between $10,000 million and $30,000 million."

That's 1917USD$




Peak estimate of the Yusupov fortune at the same time was USD$500 million

james_h

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Re: The Yusupov fortune before 1917 - richer than Romanovs?
« Reply #39 on: November 08, 2005, 12:05:22 PM »
Quote
the fact is that the Tsars personal fortune in 1917 was barely double the amount what his neice Irina had been promised as a annuity in her marriage contract of 1914 !!!!!


I cannot express adequately my extreme skepticism of this statement.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by james_h »

Offline lancashireladandre

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Re: The Yusupov fortune before 1917 - richer than Romanovs?
« Reply #40 on: November 08, 2005, 12:41:33 PM »
The sums re Nicholas & his families personal capital,are taken from the balance sheet,mentioned in Clarke's "Lost Fortune of the Tsars".I think they  were originally drawn up by Count Paul Benckendorff.I have neither the time at the moment or inclination to check further...

james_h

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Re: The Yusupov fortune before 1917 - richer than Romanovs?
« Reply #41 on: November 08, 2005, 05:42:45 PM »



That's interesting, because all the figures I've quoted were also from Clarkes "Lost Fortune of the Tsars".

Offline AkshayChavan

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Re: The Yusupov fortune before 1917 - richer than Romanovs?
« Reply #42 on: November 08, 2005, 06:54:03 PM »
"30,00" million is a ridiculous amount. Back to my point ,it was all "Potential" wealth. In Robert K Massie's Nicholas and Alexandra , he writes that Nicholas received 26 million roubles annually which would finish by october due to heavy expenses. "Potentially" tzar was owner of russia and entire russian treasury was his personal property but "actually" it was not so. So the theory that Tzar had billions is not quiet right.
        I can definitely say that romanovs were not the richest family, but i cannot say who were the richest. Sheremetevs, Stroganovs and Demidovs were definitely richer than Yussupovs. But this was in 1700s and 1800s. In 1900s the stroganovs and demidovs had their property divided. I read that Sheremetes were badly in debt. So what i think is that due to the single-heir factor Yussupovs became the richest family "by default". this was on the eve of the revolution. But this is just my opinion.

james_h

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Re: The Yusupov fortune before 1917 - richer than Romanovs?
« Reply #43 on: November 09, 2005, 08:22:27 PM »
Quote
By the turn of the 20th century, the great Stroganov fortune had been divided amongst the heirs of the last Count (principally his grandaughters :- Princess Scherbatova & Madame Rodzianko -nee Princess Galitzine). This left the Youssoupoff fortune with few if any rivals.



I'm afraid your quite wrong. The Stroganoff, along with Yusupovs, Sheremetev, and Romanov defied Russian tradition of dividing wealth equally amongst all heirs.
The last Count  Sergei Alexandrovich Stroganoff born 1818 died 1864, left his entire wealth to his youngest  sister Princess Olga Scherbatova-Stroganova, who inturn left it to no one because the revolution interupted, Princess Olga Scherbatova-Stroganova was the last steward of the Stroganoff Fortune. Your assertion that the Stroganoffs would break with approximately 300 years of family tradition by dispersing wealth equally  is suspicious to say the least.

"the fact is that the Tsars personal fortune in 1917 was barely double the amount what his neice Irina had been promised as a annuity in her marriage contract of 1914 !!!!! "

This statement also seems boderline daft. Irina was not an important member of the Romanov Dynasty. If she were, there would have been no marriage to a Yusupov.


""30,00" million is a ridiculous amount. Back to my point ,it was all "Potential" wealth."
I hate to tell you but potential wealth counts. For example, you presumably own a house worth, for arguments sake lets say  your house is worth $900,000 (the price you paid for it). You put it on the market and after 4 years no one makes an offer....is your house worthless?

The reality of the Tsars wealth is.....far from simple. You appear to assess his wealth as though he were a private individual, he wasn't. In his example you cannot separate his wealth from state wealth.
I'm also well aware Peter the Great tried tried to start to make such a distiction, so we are left with two choices...

1. There is a distiction between state and personal wealth. Which means the Tsar was not an autocrat.
2 There is infact no such distinction. State wealth is Tsars wealth. Tsar was infact an autocrat.

Futher more, the resources we have to even make a somewhat educated estimation of the wealth of pre revolutionary Russians is futile as we haven't enough unbiased, unchallengeable sources.

"The lost Fortune of the Tsars"  by Clarke = Challengeable

"The Aristocracy in Europe 1851-1911"  Dominic Lieven  =Challengeable

Former Aristocrats memories = Challengeable (They tend to inflate fortunes value)

Most = Challengeable

The Statement and account balances of The State Archives of The State Bank of The Russian Empire during the governance of I.P. Shipov = unchallengeable, but would only be a starting point. Then assets ( Art, Property, Jewels etc...)  with pre revolutionary  evaluations. Then add them together....anything short of this is pure speculation based on very little.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by james_h »

Offline lancashireladandre

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Re: The Yusupov fortune before 1917 - richer than Romanovs?
« Reply #44 on: November 10, 2005, 11:16:16 AM »
Quote


I'm afraid your quite wrong. The Stroganoff, along with Yusupovs, Sheremetev, and Romanov defied Russian tradition of dividing wealth equally amongst all heirs.
The last Count  Sergei Alexandrovich Stroganoff born 1818 died 1864, left his entire wealth to his youngest  sister Princess Olga Scherbatova-Stroganova, who inturn left it to no one because the revolution interupted, Princess Olga Scherbatova-Stroganova was the last steward of the Stroganoff Fortune. Your assertion that the Stroganoffs would break with approximately 300 years of family tradition by dispersing wealth equally  is suspicious to say the least.

"the fact is that the Tsars personal fortune in 1917 was barely double the amount what his neice Irina had been promised as a annuity in her marriage contract of 1914 !!!!! "

This statement also seems boderline daft. Irina was not an important member of the Romanov Dynasty. If she were, there would have been no marriage to a Yusupov.


""30,00" million is a ridiculous amount. Back to my point ,it was all "Potential" wealth."
I hate to tell you but potential wealth counts. For example, you presumably own a house worth, for arguments sake lets say  your house is worth $900,000 (the price you paid for it). You put it on the market and after 4 years no one makes an offer....is your house worthless?

The reality of the Tsars wealth is.....far from simple. You appear to assess his wealth as though he were a private individual, he wasn't. In his example you cannot separate his wealth from state wealth.
I'm also well aware Peter the Great tried tried to start to make such a distiction, so we are left with two choices...

1. There is a distiction between state and personal wealth. Which means the Tsar was not an autocrat.
2 There is infact no such distinction. State wealth is Tsars wealth. Tsar was infact an autocrat.

Futher more, the resources we have to even make a somewhat educated estimation of the wealth of pre revolutionary Russians is futile as we haven't enough unbiased, unchallengeable sources.

"The lost Fortune of the Tsars"  by Clarke = Challengeable

"The Aristocracy in Europe 1851-1911"  Dominic Lieven  =Challengeable

Former Aristocrats memories = Challengeable (They tend to inflate fortunes value)

Most = Challengeable

The Statement and account balances of The State Archives of The State Bank of The Russian Empire during the governance of I.P. Shipov = unchallengeable, but would only be a starting point. Then assets ( Art, Property, Jewels etc...)  with pre revolutionary  evaluations. Then add them together....anything short of this is pure speculation based on very little.

 I may be "borderline daft",In fact I think I'm becoming imbecilic  in bothering to reply, but I will say that the Half million annuity was FROM THE YOUSSOUPOFF family not the Romanov's.It was in her marriage contract,NOT part of her dowry.While both Marie Rodzianko's son Colonel Paul and her great grandson speak in their memoir's of the division of the great Stroganov fortune and how Marie's share was the slightly smaller half ( I think seven,fifteenths).As far is matters all these fortunes are " gone with the wind"and it dosen't matter who had the extra million roubles.