Author Topic: 'of Scots' vs 'of Scotland'  (Read 3714 times)

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Offline Prince_Lieven

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'of Scots' vs 'of Scotland'
« on: November 04, 2005, 09:02:38 AM »
Here's a tricky question, at least for me  ;)

Mary Stuart is generally called 'Mary, Queen of Scots'. Was her official title 'Queen of Scots' or 'Queen of Scotland'? Also, was her father James V 'King of Scots' or 'King of Scotland'? The same goes for Darnley, and Francis I of France.

Also, prior to the Act of Union 1707, was Queen Anne styled 'Queen of England and Scotland' or 'Queen of England and Queen of Scots'?

Thanks!  :)
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Offline bell_the_cat

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Re: 'of Scots' vs 'of Scotland'
« Reply #1 on: November 04, 2005, 09:31:46 AM »
First of all, the correct title in Scotland is "King" or "Queen of Scots". However outside Scotland they were often referred to as "King" or "Queen of Scotland". So Francis was "Francois, roi d Écosse". Darnley would have been "King of Scots" in Scotland.

After 1603 they preferred to be called "King" or "Queen of Great Britain and Ireland", as if the crowns were united, which of course they weren't till 1707. "Great Britain" was the invention of James VI/I.

I think this is right!
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Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: 'of Scots' vs 'of Scotland'
« Reply #2 on: November 04, 2005, 09:33:33 AM »
Thank you, Bell. On the topic, why in Scotland was it 'of Scots' rather than a territorial designation like 'of Scotland'? This is like Napoleon's 'Emperor of the French'.
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Offline bell_the_cat

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Re: 'of Scots' vs 'of Scotland'
« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2005, 09:34:31 AM »
Here's a contemporary poem by George Buchanan:

To Henry Darnley, King of Scots

  "The marigold nowhere turns from the sun.
  Opening at dawn, it closes in the dusk.
  We too depend on you, our sun. To all
  Your turns of fortune we are left exposed."

Translated from the Latin poem of George Buchanan (1506-1582)
Never put off until tomorrow what you can put off until the day after tomorrow. (Mark Twain)

Offline bell_the_cat

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Re: 'of Scots' vs 'of Scotland'
« Reply #4 on: November 04, 2005, 09:49:15 AM »
Quote
Thank you, Bell. On the topic, why in Scotland was it 'of Scots' rather than a territorial designation like 'of Scotland'? This is like Napoleon's 'Emperor of the French'.


It seems that in early mediaeval times the English kings were also Rex Anglorum rather than Rex Angliae (and the French kings were Rex Francorum). The changeover may have to do with the rise of the nation state, where the country belonged to the king rather than the king belonging to the country. So Scotland was lagging behind in this development.

This surely was the idea behind "Emperor of the French" and Louis Philippe's "King of the French": that the monarch could no longer do exactly as he pleased, and had an obligation to serve the people.


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Offline ilyala

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Re: 'of Scots' vs 'of Scotland'
« Reply #5 on: November 04, 2005, 04:34:34 PM »
there can also be a connection with the fact that for a long time the people were not in a fixed place. for example, the scots originally lived in ireland. when they moved to what we now call scotland they were still the same people and the same king but he was not the king of ireland anymore, he was the king of the scots. the angles used to live in germany... so on and so forth...
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Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: 'of Scots' vs 'of Scotland'
« Reply #6 on: November 04, 2005, 04:36:45 PM »
Good point Ilyala, and also, Scotland's borders changed a lot over the years too, like Berwick always being lost and then regained etc.
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Offline ilyala

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Re: 'of Scots' vs 'of Scotland'
« Reply #7 on: November 04, 2005, 04:39:16 PM »
exactly... by the time the borders were a fixed place the name was already in use and you don't monkey with tradition :P
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Offline bell_the_cat

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Re: 'of Scots' vs 'of Scotland'
« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2005, 03:32:07 AM »
Quote
there can also be a connection with the fact that for a long time the people were not in a fixed place. for example, the scots originally lived in ireland. when they moved to what we now call scotland they were still the same people and the same king but he was not the king of ireland anymore, he was the king of the scots. the angles used to live in germany... so on and so forth...


Yes I think that is more or less what I was trying to say. :D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by bell_the_cat »
Never put off until tomorrow what you can put off until the day after tomorrow. (Mark Twain)

Offline bell_the_cat

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Re: 'of Scots' vs 'of Scotland'
« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2005, 03:36:49 AM »
Quote
exactly... by the time the borders were a fixed place the name was already in use and you don't monkey with tradition :P


Though the border between England and Scotland is unusual in Europe in remaining unchanged since 1482. The border of the Kingdom of France was never "fixed" as you say. However at some point it was decided to go over from "King of the Franks" to "King of France". Interestingly on a coin of Mary and Francis II looked at yesterday he is called "Rex Francorum, Scotorum, Angliae et Hiberniae" that is King of the Scots the French, England and Ireland".
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by bell_the_cat »
Never put off until tomorrow what you can put off until the day after tomorrow. (Mark Twain)

Offline ilyala

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Re: 'of Scots' vs 'of Scotland'
« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2005, 09:03:27 AM »
don't you mean francis 2nd? that's because mary was considered the legitimate heir, since elizabeth had been declared illegitimate by henry
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Offline bell_the_cat

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Re: 'of Scots' vs 'of Scotland'
« Reply #11 on: November 05, 2005, 09:18:35 AM »
Oops yes  :-[ I'll change that now!

Here's the coin - or rather it's their seal from 1559:

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by bell_the_cat »
Never put off until tomorrow what you can put off until the day after tomorrow. (Mark Twain)