Author Topic: Romania and Transilvania  (Read 21933 times)

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Linnea

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Re: Romania and Transilvania
« Reply #45 on: November 16, 2005, 10:40:25 AM »
ilya, dear, could you please don´t use a that harsh tone? I don´t think it is necessary as most of your arguments are quite good. :)

Offline TampaBay

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Re: Romania and Transilvania
« Reply #46 on: November 16, 2005, 12:36:57 PM »
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as a citizem of romania i can tell you that the statement is not untrue. while romania does not do EVERYTHING the us asks, the romanian government is very keen on pleasing the american government. basically it goes back to years of russian oppresion. in the cold war it was either the russians or the americans. after we got rid of the russians most romanians hated them so bad that they figured the only way to avoid that happening again is to get close to the american government. therefor, any way to please the americans was almost immediately accepted. as a romanian citizen and as a person who does not like this kind of behaviour i am against this policy. but most romanians are in agreement to it.



I believe you are refering to American Politicians not the American People.  Most American People could not locate Romania on an unmarked map.  

However, the American people who have studied Romania support the Romanian Peoples' rights and efforts to determine her own destiny.

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Offline ilyala

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Re: Romania and Transilvania
« Reply #47 on: November 16, 2005, 02:36:07 PM »
okay, where to start...

we are talking about 1918 here. you cannot hold the 1918 government responsible for what carol 2nd did in 1938 or for what the communists did from 1945 on.

second of all. ok. let's not comare romania to greece. let's compare romania to bulgaria. bulgaria, like romania, was an obscure crowd of states in the first millenium. before the romans, bulgaria was made up of tribes of common origin, like romania. unlike romania, bulgaria never united into one state before the romans. romania is situated on the ancient location of dacia which was ONE country. made up of not only today's romania, but also basarabia, bucovina, during the times of burebista (around caesar's times) going all the way to the czech republic. after burebista, the kingdom disbanded and contained only the romanian historical provinces. romanians were not in transylvania by chance, just like bulgarians were not in bulgaria by chance. they were the descendants of the dacs mixed with the roman conquerors.while it is true that they were not an united state, they were very much aware of their kinship. bulgaria was conquered by the turks. it stayed a turkish province for centuries. should it stay like that just because the turks stayed there for centuries and because bulgaria was not of the international fame of the greek cities? the same could go for albania, most of the yugoslav states... they were not states in the true sense of the way till the 19th-20th century. does that mean that serbia should have stayed austrian?

i could go on for hours...

i am sorry if my tone is harsh but, unlike others, i have not called anyone stupid and i am still in control of what i am saying. but i hate it when i have to repeat the same argument over and over again and the person i am talking to does not register.

tampabay: of course i am talking about american politicians. and romanian politicians. i don't think anyone can generalize about a whole nation, especially one the size of the american nation. that part of the thread is pure politics, has nothing to do with what the normal sam from milwaukee or the normal dan from bucharest want.
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Offline Laura_

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Re: Romania and Transilvania
« Reply #48 on: November 16, 2005, 04:24:05 PM »
ilyala your arguments are amazing,very good research...can you find any valid  pro-hungarian arguments,(i'm just curious)??

Offline grandduchessella

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Re: Romania and Transilvania
« Reply #49 on: November 16, 2005, 04:40:24 PM »
I haven't read this so  can't give a personal opinion but this book might be of interest:

LATER CHAPTERS OF MY LIFE: The Lost Memoir of Queen Marie of Romania by Diana Mandache
2004; ISBN: 0750936916


"The text of the present short volume (only 155 pages) has only lately emerged from the National Archives in Bucharest. Sadly, it contains no details of her personal life, which was as colourful as her public achievements were impressive. But it shows what could be achieved in those days by a determined queen, half Russian and half Anglo-German. The most important chapter describes her time at the Peace Conference in 1919, at which Romania was distinctly suspect, having made terms with the Central Powers early in 1918, and only rejoining the Allies a few days before the Armistice, rather as Russia declared war on Japan in 1945 in order to be in on the subsequent peace conferences—but with considerably more justification.

Queen Marie was invited to participate separately from the official Romanian delegation, and Bratianu, the Romanian prime minister, admitted that she achieved more in a few days than his team had done in a month. This was because she was able to present the human face of Romania, and to use her personal talents for persuasion in a far more effective fashion.

Her vignettes of the national leaders whom she had to convert to her cause are very much to the point. Lloyd George, she wrote, was ‘full of fun and wit, thoroughly enjoying his own jokes. I was carried away by his undeniable charm, while wondering how much he really understood about Europe...’ (Answer, next to nothing.) Balfour was ‘not very kindly inclined towards Romania, and being so very suave and charming, combined with a certain absent-mindedness, it was not easy to discover a chink in his armour’. Clemenceau, too, had,

some grievances against Romania, and at several moments we glared at each other like two fighters...When once I half rose to leave, so as not to steal his precious time, he impatiently waved me back to my seat. ‘I have plenty of time for you: you do not whine, you speak up, I like that!’

He even said to the then Romanian ambassador Antonescu, ‘A queen like yours can only be received with military honours, with Marshal Foch at the head!’ Indeed, both Foch and President Poincaré saw her off at the station when she left.

Her part in the acquisition of Transylvania to form Greater Romania was crucial, yet she had no feelings of triumph, but rather of sympathy for the dispossessed Hungarians; and she was convinced, with more wisdom than many, that the terms inflicted on Germany were so severe that they would inevitably have disastrous repercussions. ‘The victors,’ she wrote, ‘have forgotten to be generous.’

One of her more tangible achievements was to acquire 50 engines for the battered Romanian railways, and when she went home it was with several coaches of vital food supplies attached to her train. She then threw herself into the vast task of saving hundreds of thousands of widows, orphans and invalids from starvation and from inadequate hospital care, which further increased her already enormous popularity. Her earlier heroic work in hospitals at the front in 1916–18 had prepared her for the job, and she was immensely successful in harnessing the Hoover Organisation and the American, Canadian and British Red Cross, which all made important contributions. She remains silent on the abdication and other failures on the part of her son, the future King Carol, who was a sort of Duke of Windsor but with extra Balkan drawbacks. "

"Her last memoir, written from the period following the First World War until the end of 1922, includes both the fascinating trivia and intimate details of her daily life, and also brings us alongside her as she witnesses world-changing events. From the 1919 Peace Conference—at which Queen Marie met Clemenceau, Poincare, Woodrow Wilson and Hoover—to her last meeting with her mother, the Duchess of Saxe­Coburg; and from her informal visits to Paris, London and Transylvania to the first parliament of Greater Romania, the memoir gives great insight into the life of this extraordinary queen."

It might be worth checking out for those particularly interested in this period and her role in it.
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Offline Laura_

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Re: Romania and Transilvania
« Reply #50 on: November 16, 2005, 05:10:14 PM »
Quote
BTW, how is the relationship between the counties today? Sometimes you read something in the newspapers (like the meeting between the governments recently), but I would like to hear it from you. Is this conflict really still so important?


Politicians feel they can keep everything under control,the governments met ....bla,bla,bla you know these things...i think taht nowadays  the relationship between the two countries is less tenssioned and more a relation of accepting one another.
But the conflict between hungarians and romanians still persist,unfortunately,in Romania(and because of some instigating politicians),bassicaly in Harghita and Covasna,the 2 counties where hungarians are in a majority.i watched a talkshow on this matter between a romanian politician and a hungarian one yesterday,it was very interesting...this unforunate and eternal conflict is related most of all to the hugarian language,school,church,etcthe fewer romanians say they'll have to leave that region because they can not understand the language ,they say that they can't make themselves understood to doctors,when they need medical attendance etc
it's a very very sad situation:(:(:(
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Laurra »

Offline ilyala

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Re: Romania and Transilvania
« Reply #51 on: November 17, 2005, 05:15:27 AM »
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ilyala your arguments are amazing,very good research...can you find any valid  pro-hungarian arguments,(i'm just curious)??



i sincerely believe that transylvania should belong with the romanians. there are, of course reasons why the hungarians want it. the most valid reason the hungarians can present is the fact that it's been under hungarian control for almost 1000 years. while i believe this argument to be invalid for reasons stated before, it is quite a strong argument. when hungarians arrived in transylvania, the romanians were very disbanded in very small kingdoms (actually called voievodate) and they were very easy to conquer by an organized army. it is true that the hungarians and the austrians invested a lot in transylvania. it is true they organized the country in a way that it hadn't been organized since the romans. it is true that it must be very frustrating to lose a piece of land after so many centuries. and i can understand their desire to get it back. but i wish that they wouldn't let that desire blind them. most hungarians don't listen to reason and arguments. all they know is 'transylvania should be with hungary'.

on the other hand i'm pretty sure that if a referendum would be organized in transylvania, it would still vote to be in romania. with the exception of harghita and covasna.....

as for the relations between the two countries, it's not like we're at war or anything... most people don't bother with these stuff... i don't either, unless am part of an active conversation about it... since we ARE heading towards an united europe, i don't think it will be a problem for too long
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Offline Laura_

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Re: Romania and Transilvania
« Reply #52 on: November 17, 2005, 06:28:32 AM »
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on the other hand i'm pretty sure that if a referendum would be organized in transylvania, it would still vote to be in romania. with the exception of harghita and covasna.....



certainly!!!!!!

Linnea

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Re: Romania and Transilvania
« Reply #53 on: November 17, 2005, 09:56:00 AM »
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Politicians feel they can keep everything under control,the governments met ....bla,bla,bla you know these things...i think taht nowadays  the relationship between the two countries is less tenssioned and more a relation of accepting one another.
But the conflict between hungarians and romanians still persist,unfortunately,in Romania(and because of some instigating politicians),bassicaly in Harghita and Covasna,the 2 counties where hungarians are in a majority.i watched a talkshow on this matter between a romanian politician and a hungarian one yesterday,it was very interesting...this unforunate and eternal conflict is related most of all to the hugarian language,school,church,etcthe fewer romanians say they'll have to leave that region because they can not understand the language ,they say that they can't make themselves understood to doctors,when they need medical attendance etc
it's a very very sad situation:(:(:(


Hmm, that´s really a sad situation, I think. It´s kind of sad that mixed populations always have problems with each other and can´t get along... That was also the problem in Jugoslavia, where to many differnt ethnies and religions didn´t get along, so, after a terrible war, the country was splitted up in many small ones.

Linnea

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Re: Romania and Transilvania
« Reply #54 on: November 17, 2005, 09:58:50 AM »
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but i wish that they wouldn't let that desire blind them. most hungarians don't listen to reason and arguments. all they know is 'transylvania should be with hungary'.



Well, do Romanians listen to arguments? ;) It seem to be a kind of "communication problem" too.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Linnea »

Linnea

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Re: Romania and Transilvania
« Reply #55 on: November 17, 2005, 10:00:02 AM »
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on the other hand i'm pretty sure that if a referendum would be organized in transylvania, it would still vote to be in romania. with the exception of harghita and covasna.....


Of course, as Romanians are in the majority... ;)

Offline ilyala

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Re: Romania and Transilvania
« Reply #56 on: November 17, 2005, 10:22:44 AM »
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Well, do Romanians listen to arguments? ;) It seem to be a kind of "communication problem" too.



uhm... maybe i'm mistaken, but i believe my arguments to be reasonable and valid. my argument does not consist solely of 'transylvania should be romanian cause i want it to, or cause we want it to' etc. maybe i am biased, but i think i made a pretty strong case...  :)

Quote
Of course, as Romanians are in the majority...


so why are we even discussing this? why should transylvania belong to hungary, if most transylvanians want to stay in romania? is it just me or it really doesn't make sense?
'loving might be a mistake, but it's worth making'
ilya


anabel

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Re: Romania and Transilvania
« Reply #57 on: November 17, 2005, 10:39:14 AM »
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so, basically, what you are saying is that the people with money have more right to vote and decide what's going on with their country than people with no money. i find that nonsesical. in a democracy EVERYONE has a right to vote. and as i said, just because transylvania wasn't a democracy before doesn't mean it should never be a democracy.  the 1923 constitution of romania granted everyone the right to vote. therefor romania was a democratic country.



Oh, you are soo sweet! Do you really believe that in a democracy everybody´s vote counts the same?!? Not if Romania is still that corrupt as it was back then! ;D That´s so naive, I can´t believe it!!!
And, dear, you don´t seem to be open for the most important reason at all: Transylvania had been Hungarian since ever after; sadly, Romanians saw that people in Hungary were richer (and, thanks God, we still are!), so they decided to move where the wealth was...

Offline Laura_

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Re: Romania and Transilvania
« Reply #58 on: November 17, 2005, 11:27:33 AM »
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Well, do Romanians listen to arguments? ;) It seem to be a kind of "communication problem" too.



here i agree with you Linnea!!!!!!sometimes hungarians and romanians simply can't communicate...i repeat ONLY SOMETIMES!!!because,as i said it before, i get along very well with my  hungarian relatives and friends>>

Offline Laura_

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Re: Romania and Transilvania
« Reply #59 on: November 17, 2005, 11:31:55 AM »
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Hmm, that´s really a sad situation, I think. It´s kind of sad that mixed populations always have problems with each other and can´t get along... That was also the problem in Jugoslavia, where to many differnt ethnies and religions didn´t get along, so, after a terrible war, the country was splitted up in many small ones.



yes! indeed, as i said it's a very sad situatin for everyone, because romanians or hugarians ,everybody looses something because of this stupid conflict,so this problem MUST  be solved as soon as possible(although it is very difficult for both sides)- anyway i hope we will solve this  together...sometimes>Laura
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Laurra »