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Topic: Romanov Fortunes and Annuities  (Read 22972 times)
Reply #15
« on: November 18, 2005, 06:10:26 PM »
Valmont Offline
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OK.. This is soooo interesting. I never wonder this, but it seems it is like the basics of romanov history.. Now.. I have a question.... Where and/or how did the get that wealth? and why  was it different than the other Grand Dukes and Grand Duchesses??
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Reply #16
« on: November 18, 2005, 09:47:43 PM »
james_h
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Grand Dukes got a Million Rubles just for getting married. Plus an annual income, which I cannot remember off hand. Basically the closer your relationship to a Tsar the more you got. Plus any money left to them or given to them by their parents, grandparents etc... Most owned farms which gave them a modest income. Rent's probably made a contribution aswell.

A Dowager Empress got = 200,000 rubles /year
Tsesarevitch                   = 100,000 rubles/year
Grand Dukes                   = 150,000 rubles/year


So lets say you were a grandson of a Tsar.

1,000,000 rubles one off payment
150,000 rubles annually

5 years of bachelordom
1,000,000 rubles one off payment for getting married.
Once married...
If you had been frugal
2,750,000 Million Rubles plus
285,000 rubles per year plus any inheritance from elders.

I believe GD Vladimir was in charge of the institution that made the payments to everyone, I can imagine him "skiming" money off the top Wink

Does anyone know how much the IF bought the Beloselsky-Belozersky palace for? In Rubles?
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Reply #17
« on: November 18, 2005, 10:50:45 PM »
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Wasn't it Serge and Paul who inherited the bulk of Empress Marie's money?
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Reply #18
« on: December 31, 2005, 06:22:04 AM »
marina
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  I wonder what has become of tsar's money. I read somewhere that after the murder, it has been invest in England, yes but after? And what has become steamer  Standart?
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Reply #19
« on: December 31, 2005, 08:22:40 AM »
LisaDavidson Offline
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A couple of points:

1. The Standardt was used until around the 1930's - and we did have info on it on the APTM site. Please consult it and the Forum archives.
2. The family's money is gone. It was stolen by the Bolsheviks.
3. For further information on Tsarist assets, I recommend Bill Clarke's "The Lost Fortune of  the Tsars".
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Reply #20
« on: January 01, 2006, 07:33:25 PM »
calebGmoney
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There were rumors of a Tsarist fortune in the bank of England. The bank denies ever having money. But Lili Dehn said that the empress told her that the money of the grand duchess's was not used in the war and still resided there. Anna Anderson said the same thing. It still remains a source of great contreversy as to whether there was ever money there or not.
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Reply #21
« on: January 01, 2006, 07:38:35 PM »
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Actually, if you bother to read Clarke's "Lost Fortune of the Tsar", he was granted unlimited access to the Bank of England records. There never WAS any such fortune on deposit. Caleb PLEASE do your research before making such unsupported allegations.
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Reply #22
« on: January 01, 2006, 08:15:18 PM »
grandduchessella Offline
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LFOTT is a good book and dispells many of the myths about the Romanovs, their money, property and jewels that pop up from time to time.

I think it was mainly a controversy only during the AA trials.

If I remember correctly, always a big If, I think the Tsar had removed all his money from foreign banks and encouraged his relatives to do the same. If he was encouraging people to do this, it would've seem very unfortunate to have left his own daughters's money there.
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Reply #23
« on: January 02, 2006, 08:22:40 PM »
Dominic_Albanese Offline
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Your right Grand Duchess Ella -  Nicholas required all members of the family to repatriate all assets held in foreign banks back to Russia as WW I began.  I think the lack of funds overseas, was part of the reason why Alexandra took so many jewels with her when she left the Alexander Palace and why she tried so hard to hide them once things started to get scary.

In addition to having the children sew the jewels into their cloths I believe they also smuggled some of their larger jewels out while in Tobolsk to a local monastery.  If memory serves me correctly the soviets murdered several nuns trying to get them to tell where the jewels were hidden.

Mariana - there are a number of articles on the site about their lost fortune – just do a search.

dca
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Dominic_Albanese » Logged
Reply #24
« on: January 03, 2006, 08:11:54 AM »
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The story and list of the important jewels hidden in the convent is available on the main website here:
http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/jewelslist.html
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Reply #25
« on: January 08, 2006, 02:25:42 PM »
Nadezhda Edvardovna Offline
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Was their a penalty if a family member refused to repatriate their foreign deposits?

Peace,

Nadezhda
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Reply #26
« on: January 08, 2006, 04:11:29 PM »
Dominic_Albanese Offline
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Quote
Was their a penalty if a family member refused to repatriate their foreign deposits?

Peace,

Nadezhda


Dear Nadezhda,

This is a very good question.  I've read nothing specific related to how many (who or how much) other members of the family actually brought their money back to Russia.  But most of the family must have given how poorly they lived after the revolution.

I do remember reading that OTMA had money in trust in Germany when the war begun and of course, that money was lost too them.  After the war, the german economy was ruined so the money was virtually useless.

So I guess the only 'proof' I have that they did was the fact that the Empress, her daughters, the Vladimirs, Nickoleavich, et. al. had to beg, borrow and steal to live after the revolution.

Does anyone have anything more substantive - I'd be greatful if you'd share it if so!

best,
dca
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Reply #27
« on: February 06, 2006, 06:26:50 AM »
AkshayChavan Offline
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From the amounts shown above, Grand dukes look poorer in comparison to Russia's other grandees. For example annual income of Count Sheremetev was 1.5 million roubles almost 10 times as that of grand dukes while that of Baron Alexander Steiglitz was 3 million roubles per annum which is 20 times!!! From "White Crow" i infer that Uncle Bimbo inherited the bulk of Mikhailovichi fortune. Why was the property not equally divided?

Second point, In "Micheal and Natasha" i read that GD Alexis left all his property to his nephew, Michael. Why did he do that when he had morganic children of his own?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by AkshayChavan » Logged
Reply #28
« on: February 06, 2006, 08:26:22 AM »
leushino
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Interesting discussion but I personally find these numbers obscene. It's no wonder to me that revolution had to come, given the poverty-stricken condition of so many in the empire.
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Reply #29
« on: February 06, 2006, 08:45:33 AM »
Tsarfan Offline
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Other threads have discussed the finances of the tsar and his relatives, but it's a very confusing picture to assemble, especially when trying to make comparisons to the wealth of the nobility.

The line between the tsar's assets and state assets was murky.  He held much property in his own right, from which he derived private income.  The official residences, though, were built and maintained partly with state resources.  For instance, the army provided much of the labor force for Peter the Great's building projects.  

I once read a report (and I cannot remember where) that shortly before WWI, the tsar's annual expenditures were around 25 million rubles while his income was only about half that.  The difference was funded by the issuance of state bonds, sold largely to investors outside of Russia.  So it appears that Nicholas kept his household of some 17,000 people going by a combination of personal income and a draw on state resources.

The definition of "household", though, is not a conventional one.  It included the staffs of the Imperial ballet and theater companies, the curatorships of state art collections, and many other things that were controlled by the tsar but accessible to much of the citizenry.

The wealth of other members of the imperial family derived from a combination of personal property (which passed by bequest) and payments out of state coffers from a "civil list", such as was the practice throughout Europe and is still the practice in Great Britain.  The amount of payments was determined in part by rank and in part by the tsar's discretion.

There was also a consideration of gender in the right to access assets.  In her biography, Grand Duchess Marie Pavlovna the Younger mentions that she had to apply to her brother Dmitri for money to cover expenses, although she received payments from the civil list and held considerable property in her own right.

Even the wealth of the nobility, which was more clearly private, neverthelss often contained components deriving from state power.  The tsars, as did their counterparts elsewhere in Europe, often conferred state monopolies on their favorites or on people who had provided extraordinary service to the crown or nation.  The Yusopovs, for instance, derived much of their vast wealth from state mining concessions.

In one sense, the richest Grand Duke was the one who was most in the tsar's favor -- for in Russia, one way or another, everything came down to the tsar, and no amount of "private" wealth could offer inviolate protection or control of one's own affairs.

As Grand Dukes Paul, Michael, and others learned over the years, if you displeased the tsar, he could confiscate your property, exile you from Russia, confine you to an estate, revoke your right to raise your children.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Tsarfan » Logged
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