Author Topic: The make of a bayanet  (Read 19321 times)

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Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: The make of a bayanet
« Reply #15 on: December 08, 2005, 09:30:19 AM »
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Those who mention DNA seems confused as to the topic of this thread which is "The make of a bayanet".:-/

I honestly doubt that DNA would leave a scar which resembles a bayanet wound  ;D.

We would appreciate everyone's cooperation in remaining on topic.

Thank you.

AGRBear


No matter how hard you try to sweep it under the carpet or bury it under a swarm of red herrings, the DNA evidence is still there telling us what the real answers are. So it will come up in every discussion on this subject - no matter hard you try to supress it. You may as well just get used to it.

Offline AGRBear

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Re: The make of a bayanet
« Reply #16 on: December 08, 2005, 10:06:35 AM »
So,  let us ask the questions so Helen and others can make comments without using DNA.

Since some of you believe Anna Anderson was a fake,  and,  she prepared herself for her first examination with the doctors who would note all of her "old wounds",  she knew before she jumped into the Berlin canal that she would need to have certain wounds, like one from a Russian bayonet.  So what was the make of the bayonet  she have used to copy the wounds which had become scars if she had been the real GD Anastasia had she survived?  I would assume she did not wound herself.  She probably had a  fellow conspirators who created these kind of wounds.  What was "The make of a bayanet"  [bayonet] used to create the wound her body displayed for the Dalldorf docors to see and record?

You cannot deny the following.

AA did have scars.

These scars were recorded by the Dalldorf doctors.

We know she did not receive any wounds when the grenade exploded since that medical record is, now, recovered and was viewed by Greg King and Penny Wilson, the authors of THE FATE OF THE ROMANOVS, as told to us by Penny when she was posting.

With this new scenario, can you, Helen, or anyone else, tell us the make of the bayonet used to inflict the wounds which would have matched wounds of those inflicted on GD Anastasia and the others?

If this new scenario still doesn't click in a response which eliminates the "DNA reminder tag"  then let me ask:

What was the make of the bayonets used by the executioners of the IF and the others on the night of 16/17 July 1918?

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
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Offline Louis_Charles

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Re: The make of a bayanet
« Reply #17 on: December 08, 2005, 01:41:30 PM »
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So,  let us ask the questions so Helen and others can make comments without using DNA.

Since some of you believe Anna Anderson was a fake,  and,  she prepared herself for her first examination with the doctors who would note all of her "old wounds",  she knew befoe she jumped into the Berlin canal that she would need to have certain wounds, like one from a Russian bayonet.  So what was the make of the bayonet  she have used to copy the wounds which had become scars if she had been the real GD Anastasia had she survived?  I would assume she did not wound herself.  She probably had a  fellow conspirators who created these kind of wounds.  What was "The make of a bayanet"  [bayonet] used to create the wound her body displayed for the Dalldorf docors to see and record?

You cannot deny the following.

AA did have scars.

These scars were recorded by the Dalldorf doctors.

We know she did not receive any wounds when the grenade exploded since that medical record is, now, recovered and was viewed by Greg King and Penny Wilson, the authors of THE FATE OF THE ROMANOVS, as told to us by Penny when she was posting.

With this new scenario, can you, Helen, or anyone else, tell us the make of the bayonet used to inflict the wounds which would have matched wounds of those inflicted on GD Anastasia and the others?

If this new scenario still doesn't click in a response which eliminates the "DNA reminder tag"  then let me ask:

What was the make of the bayonets used by the executioners of the IF and the others on the night of 16/17 July 1918?


AGRBear


You should probably ask the question in the plural, as in the "makes" of the bayonets. The soldiers of the guard detail weren't from one unit, or even entirely Russian; there was a wide variety of small arms used, so it makes sense that there would have been more than one kind of bayonet/rife.

Um . . . I'm curious as to how you know what Anna Andersen was thinking before she jumped into the canal. I am particularly interested in your speculation that Andersen knew she would need wounds to "prove" she was Anastasia. That seems to imply that she was plotting the deception from the beginning, which doesn't match the series of events Kurth, King and Wilson outline in their respective works. Nor does it match anything I have ever seen posted on this board by those who don't believe she was Anastasia.

Regards,

Simon
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Louis_Charles »
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Offline Louis_Charles

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Re: The make of a bayanet
« Reply #18 on: December 08, 2005, 01:46:43 PM »
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So therefore the testimonies of witnesses and medical experts are to be ignored?



The testimonies of eyewitness and medical experts are to be considered, weighed, and if they conflict with the best available evidence for identification, discarded.

Remember, this works both ways. The development of new methods has allowed erroneous judgements to be overturned, and falsely convicted murderers and rapists to receive justice in cases where circumstantial evidence supported the idea that they had committed the crimes.

Before we return to Andersen's bayonet wound, I do think that those who support her identity as Anastasia (Bear, I'm looking at you) should explain why this case, out of the literally thousands in which genetic materials have played a role, is so different that the rules should be suspended.

Regards,

Simon
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Offline AGRBear

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Re: The make of a bayanet
« Reply #19 on: December 08, 2005, 02:37:34 PM »
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The testimonies of eyewitness and medical experts are to be considered, weighed, and if they conflict with the best available evidence for identification, discarded.

Remember, this works both ways. The development of new methods has allowed erroneous judgements to be overturned, and falsely convicted murderers and rapists to receive justice in cases where circumstantial evidence supported the idea that they had committed the crimes.

Before we return to Andersen's bayonet wound, I do think that those who support her identity as Anastasia (Bear, I'm looking at you) should explain why this case, out of the literally thousands in which genetic materials have played a role, is so different that the rules should be suspended.

Regards,

Simon


I do not think I have ever stated that I thought Anna Anderson was GD Anastasia.  In fact,  I wish I had a penny for everytime I've said this.  What I have added to this is:  I'm not sure Anna Anderson was FS after I started to compare the evidence without using the DNA.  When I had started that task I had assumed prematurely that there would be a few differences because that is to be expected.  I didn't expect such things as the difference of  "four inches" in height between the two women found on medical charts.  Nor had I known that all the photographs of FS were copies and had been retouched and that we do not have a single untouched photograph of FS.  Yes, the AA and FS differences has it's own thread and this is where it should be discuss.  Sorry.  But it seems Simon has been mislead or I've said something that may have confused him into thinking incorrectly.  Sorry, Simon.  Are you, now, clear on my position?

And, you are right about asking if there were different kinds of bayonets used on the night of the 16th and 17th of July.  I don't know the answer.  I do recall the guns were held by the CHEKA Yurovsky who ordered the guns and bullets used  to be taken from the place where they were stores and that the guns  were to be ready for the execution.  Perhaps this was the same for the bayonets which wold have been fixed only on the rifles.  Bayonets would not have been fixed to pistols.

Were all the rifles Russian rifles?  I don't recall at this time.   I do know all the pistols were not Russian.

At the moment I do not recall the answer if all the rifles were Russian or  not.  I will be back when I can with that answer or FA will accuse me of asking others to do my work.  Of course, if someone else has the time,  I'd appreciate the help.  

Thanks.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
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Offline AGRBear

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Re: The make of a bayanet
« Reply #20 on: December 08, 2005, 03:01:12 PM »
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You should probably ask the question in the plural, as in the "makes" of the bayonets. The soldiers of the guard detail weren't from one unit, or even entirely Russian; there was a wide variety of small arms used, so it makes sense that there would have been more than one kind of bayonet/rife.


"Makers".  I don't know the answer to this, yet.

Quote
Um . . . I'm curious as to how you know what Anna Andersen was thinking before she jumped into the canal. I am particularly interested in your speculation that Andersen knew she would need wounds to "prove" she was Anastasia. That seems to imply that she was plotting the deception from the beginning, which doesn't match the series of events Kurth, King and Wilson outline in their respective works. Nor does it match anything I have ever seen posted on this board by those who don't believe she was Anastasia.

Regards,

Simon


I have no idea what Anna Anderson was thinking before or after she jumped into the Berlin canal in Feb. of 1920.  

My SPECULATION about the wounds are many and I have yet considered any kind of conclusion.

If it is true that FS was  AA, who had no memorable scars remembered by her  brother Felix or noted on the medical records created during her examine just after the explosion of the grenade at the factory, then they had to have been suffered in some manner.  Were they self iinflicted  or did someone else cause these wounds?  I do not know if any or all could have been self inflicted. I'll have to let someone else provide the answer to that evidence.   However,  they were wounds which had  healed into "old scars" before she jumped into the Berlin canal.

If the scars provide us with the evidence that they could not have been self inflicted, then,  she would have had help or someone had attacked her and left these wounds.  If she had not been attacked then maybe someone and she had conspired to decieve.   It think this is possible since her wounds seem to mirror the kind of scars which GD Anastasia would have had if she had survived.  

Is it  too much of a stretch to think that these wounds, such as the ones which resemble the scar of a wound caused by a bayonet,  had been created for the reason to decieve?

If theses scars were meant to decieve would this have included another wound to create a scar that would have existed from the removale of a mole.

There is THAT scar on the finger from a carriage accident which could have easily been incorrectly believed by AA or her conspirator/conspirtors to have belonged to GD Anastasia but ended up being a scar.  Only trouble was THAT scrar belonged to another sister.

Are there other scars?

I don't know.

My reply to Simon has certainly gotten me off into a SPECULATION which has nothing to do with finding the "make of a bayanet"  or "makers", if Simon is proven to be more accurate.

Sorry.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
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Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: The make of a bayanet
« Reply #21 on: December 08, 2005, 03:26:54 PM »
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I have no idea what Anastasia was thinking before or after she jumped into the Berlin canal in Feb. of 1920.  


Freudian slip?  ;)  ;)



« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by helenazar »

Offline Annie

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Re: The make of a bayanet
« Reply #22 on: December 08, 2005, 04:45:16 PM »
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We know she did not receive any wounds when the grenade exploded since that medical record is, now, recovered and was viewed by Greg King and Penny Wilson, the authors of THE FATE OF THE ROMANOVS, as told to us by Penny when she was posting.


We do NOT 'know' this, I have nothing but one poster's word for it, regardless of who it was. When I post something you demand PROOF, so I ask the same. Until I see these alleged records or have them validated by more than one credible source, I do not consider it real.


Quote
With this new scenario, can you, Helen, or anyone else, tell us the make of the bayonet used to inflict the wounds which would have matched wounds of those inflicted on GD Anastasia and the others?


We will never know what that scar actually was. So it looked like the shape of a certain bayonet. There is a grilled cheese sandwich shaped like the Virgin Mary too.


The reason DNA was mentioned is because one poster said it was wrong to ignore medical evidence. DNA is also medical evidence.

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Re: The make of a bayanet
« Reply #23 on: December 08, 2005, 05:07:03 PM »
Thank you Helen for taking notice of my error.  8)  I will correct.

Quote

We do NOT 'know' this, I have nothing but one poster's word for it, regardless of who it was. When I post something you demand PROOF, so I ask the same. Until I see these alleged records or have them validated by more than one credible source, I do not consider it real.


The poster was Penny Wilson who with Greg King wrote the book THE FATE OF THE ROMANOVS.  And, it was explained that this document will probably be reproduced in their book on the subject.  And, she explained that she cannot present it here on this forum at this time.

If Annie or other posters do not wish to believe Wilson or King, that is their right.  Since I have no reason not to believe Wilson or King,  I will wait patiently for the book to be published and see it then.


Quote
We will never know what that scar actually was. So it looked like the shape of a certain bayonet. There is a grilled cheese sandwich shaped like the Virgin Mary too.


I guess you don't want to join me as I and my granddaughter in our little game when we try to see shapes in the clouds.

Are there photographs of these scars which were claimed to have been inflicted by bayonets?

Since no one has voiced that such scars did not exist,  I assume they do, however, I probably should have asked   "Do such scars exist on AA?" and then asked for the source since I'd like to find this information and read it.

Quote
The reason DNA was mentioned is because one poster said it was wrong to ignore medical evidence. DNA is also medical evidence.


Since this topic is about scars by a bayonet and it's make  [bayonets and their makers],  I am sorry to say, I and others are guilty of getting away from this subject from time to time.

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« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
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Offline Louis_Charles

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Re: The make of a bayanet
« Reply #24 on: December 08, 2005, 06:04:20 PM »
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"Makers".  I don't know the answer to this, yet.


I have no idea what Anna Anderson was thinking before or after she jumped into the Berlin canal in Feb. of 1920.  

My SPECULATION about the wounds are many and I have yet considered any kind of conclusion.

If it is true that FS was  AA, who had no memorable scars remembered by her  brother Felix or noted on the medical records created during her examine just after the explosion of the grenade at the factory, then they had to have been suffered in some manner.  Were they self iinflicted  or did someone else cause these wounds?  I do not know if any or all could have been self inflicted. I'll have to let someone else provide the answer to that evidence.   However,  they were wounds which had  healed into "old scars" before she jumped into the Berlin canal.

If the scars provide us with the evidence that they could not have been self inflicted, then,  she would have had help or someone had attacked her and left these wounds.  If she had not been attacked then maybe someone and she had conspired to decieve.   It think this is possible since her wounds seem to mirror the kind of scars which GD Anastasia would have had if she had survived.  

Is it  too much of a stretch to think that these wounds, such as the ones which resemble the scar of a wound caused by a bayonet,  had been created for the reason to decieve?

If theses scars were meant to decieve would this have included another wound to create a scar that would have existed from the removale of a mole.

There is THAT scar on the finger from a carriage accident which could have easily been incorrectly believed by AA or her conspirator/conspirtors to have belonged to GD Anastasia but ended up being a scar.  Only trouble was THAT scrar belonged to another sister.

Are there other scars?

I don't know.

My reply to Simon has certainly gotten me off into a SPECULATION which has nothing to do with finding the "make of a bayanet"  or "makers", if Simon is proven to be more accurate.

Sorry.

AGRBear



I think I may have been unclear by using the word "makes". I mean the design of them, as in the Russian army of World War I may have had one design, the Austro-Hungarian another, etc. I am assuming that there was more than one kind of rifle in the basement during the shooting, but I could be wrong. It grows out of the idea that the execution detail was from a variety of military backgrounds.

In your post you said that AA would "know" that should have to produce certain kinds of scars. My point was that I don't believe that she went into Dalldorf with the idea of proving she was the Grand Duchess. The whole case snowballed after Peuthart identified her as Tatiana. I haven't seen any evidence of a prior conspiracy to Dalldorf to pass Franziska Schanzkowska (as I believe Anna Andersen to have been) off as Anastasia Romanov. After the deception began, then yes, I think she had sources that fed her information, wittingly or not.

Back to the bayonet. If in fact Schankowska had such a wound in her foot the last time she was seen by her family, it is at least possible that they didn't see her bare feet.

I am also wondering if there is a list somewhere of the kinds of bayonets that were in the Ipatiev House. It seems unlikely, but worth a look-see into the sources.
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Offline Louis_Charles

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Re: The make of a bayanet
« Reply #25 on: December 08, 2005, 06:06:18 PM »
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I do not think I have ever stated that I thought Anna Anderson was GD Anastasia.  In fact,  I wish I had a penny for everytime I've said this.  What I have added to this is:  I'm not sure Anna Anderson was FS after I started to compare the evidence without using the DNA.  When I had started that task I had assumed prematurely that there would be a few differences but that was to be expected.  I didn't expect such things as "four inches" in height between the two women found on medical charts.  Nor had I known that all the photographs of FS were copies and had been retouched and that we do not have a single untouched photograph of FS.  Of course, the AA and FS differences has it's own thread.  Sorry.  But it seems Simon has been mislead or I've said something that may have confused him into thinking incorrectly.  Sorry, Simon.  Are you, now, clear on my position?

And, you are right about asking if there were different kinds of bayonets used on the night of the 16th and 17th of July.  I don't know the answer.  I do recall the guns were held by the CHEKA Yurovsky who ordered the guns and bullets used  to be taken from the place where they were stores and that the guns  were to be ready for the execution.  Perhaps this was the same for the bayonets which wold have been fixed only on the rifles.  Bayonets would not have been fixed to pistols.

Were all the rifles Russian rifles?  I don't recall at this time.   I do know all the pistols were not Russian.

At the moment I do not recall the answer at the rifles being Russian or not.  I will be back when I can with that answer or FA will accuse me of asking others to do my work.  Of course, if someone else has the time,  I'd appreciate the help.  

Thanks.

AGRBear



It is more clear. You do not believe that Anna Andersen was Anastasia, but you also do not believe that she was Franziska Schanzkowska. Do I have it right?
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Offline elfwine

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Re: The make of a bayanet
« Reply #26 on: December 08, 2005, 06:06:42 PM »
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In all of the books about Anna Anderson, it is stated that Anna Anderson had a scar on her right foot in the shape of a star. Experts who looked at the scar confirmed that it coincided exactly in size and shape to a Bolshevik bayanet. If you don't believe in Anna Anderson's claims, how do you wonder how she managed to get this scar? Who do you think stabbed her in the foot? I'm interested in hearing your theories.


OK  8)
The Bolshevics had REALLY not been in power that long so WHY would they have made a bunch of Star Shaped bayonets (a cool image - but REALLY NOT PRACTICAL) and sent them out when they were still struggling for political consolidation?!?!
 By the way bayonets were really NOT that practical or of much real use in WWI at all --[read All Quiet On The Western Front.]
This sounds like it is  much more of a 'grassy knoll' type urban myth to me.

If this sort of thing is your source material - AA - I think that you might want to do a LOT more research.

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Offline Annie

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Re: The make of a bayanet
« Reply #27 on: December 08, 2005, 08:05:36 PM »
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The poster was Penny Wilson who with Greg King wrote the book THE FATE OF THE ROMANOVS.  And, it was explained that this document will probably be reproduced in their book on the subject.  And, she explained that she cannot present it here on this forum at this time.


As of now, it is only a rumor. As I said, it makes no difference WHAT BOOK A PERSON WRITES, their posts must be validated by more than word of mouth just like mine, yours or anyone else's before I will accept evidence that changes established fact and something that was never said to be true in the entire 30 year trial or during the life of the person in question. This 'new' tidbit is very suspect at this point.
Quote
Since no one has voiced that such scars did not exist,  I assume they do, however, I probably should have asked   "Do such scars exist on AA?" and then asked for the source since I'd like to find this information and read it.


Again, there is no more than word of mouth here.


Quote
his topic is about scars by a bayonet and it's make  [bayonets and their makers],  I am sorry to say, I and others are guilty of getting away from this subject from time to time.

AGRBear


Anytime the subject questions whether or not AA was AN, the DNA is bound to come up, you can't escape it.

Offline Annie

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Re: The make of a bayanet
« Reply #28 on: December 08, 2005, 08:06:39 PM »
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OK  8)
The Bolshevics had REALLY not been in power that long so WHY would they have made a bunch of Star Shaped bayonets (a cool image - but REALLY NOT PRACTICAL) and sent them out when they were still struggling for political consolidation?!?!
  By the way bayonets were really NOT that practical or of much real use in WWI at all --[read All Quiet On The Western Front.]
This sounds like it is  much more of a 'grassy knoll' type urban myth to me.

If this sort of thing is your source material - AA - I think that you might want to do a LOT more research.
 


True, they certainly weren't organized enough to issue a uniform gun to everyone. But your post is far too practical for this survivor forum, it deals mainly in wild fantasies, what ifs, and fairy tales.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Annie »

Offline AGRBear

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Re: The make of a bayanet
« Reply #29 on: December 08, 2005, 09:01:15 PM »
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It is more clear. You do not believe that Anna Andersen was Anastasia, but you also do not believe that she was Franziska Schanzkowska. Do I have it right?


I have not drawn a conclusion about AA being FS.

If Penny and Greg's future books present evidence, like the medical records, then I may be able to  draw a conclusion.  If they do not, then I'll have to draw a conclusion on what we, now, know.  Since I am in no rush,  I will wait and see.

Meanwhile, back to the bayonets.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

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