Author Topic: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich  (Read 63193 times)

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Offline AGRBear

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Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
« Reply #15 on: January 04, 2006, 05:06:11 PM »
Quote

Bear,

In fact, Grand Duke Nicholas lived openly in France. I am curious. Why do you assume that former White Army generals were more threatening to the Communist government that members of the Imperial Family? In fact, I think you may be correct, since as Phil points out, the ones repatriated against their will to Russia were, in fact, not Romanovs. Which the point that I was trying to make in my other post. Why do we assume that there was a need for Anna Andersen to hide, if she was Anastasia? In fact, no Romanov was "hunted down".

I will go back and watch the television series, if you think it is an acceptable source of information.


Simon


I'd trust Phil's comments on the tv series because he's more in tune to the British history than I.  

Would I use the tv series for a source.?   I'd not use it as a historical source anymore than I would most tv series and movies where entertainment is the main reason they are created.

Revised:
Quote
If you ever get a chance, watch the PBS series on Sidney Reilly, Ace of Spies.  He was constantly in the mix of the anti-Bolhsevik plots.  Whomever it was who put togather the series seem to have had an excellent expert on those times [clothes, cars, furniture, buildings, etc.] in Europe and Russia.



AGRBear


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
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Offline Louis_Charles

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Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
« Reply #16 on: January 04, 2006, 06:11:35 PM »
Bear:

Cf. The Flight of the Romanovs, there were no Romanov "hostages" taken by the Soviets once they had cleared the country. The hostages within the country --- the Imperial Family itself, Grand Duke Michael, Grand Duchess Ella, their companions, the three Grand Dukes executed in 1919 in Petersburg, a few others --- were executed.

It is obvious that had they wished to kill or kidnap Romanovs, they could have done so, since they were able to remove other opponents from foreign soil.

All of this is not to say that the woman impersonating Anastasia may have indeed felt threatened by what she assumed would be their response.

It just wasn't their response.

Simon
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Offline Louis_Charles

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Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
« Reply #17 on: January 04, 2006, 06:16:10 PM »
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Bruce Lockhardt wrote about him,  Reilly wrote about himself and Richard B. Spence's book TRUST NO ONE, THE SECRET WORLD OF SIDNEY REILLY gives us more insight on Reilly and  those times.  Including the TRUST p. 338:
>>....to be dubbed the "Trust" (Trest).  While most of its rank and file would be legitimate monarchists, thus flushing them out of the woodwork, the key positions would be held by Chekists and "reliable" operatives.  They, in turn, would be used to divert and infiltrate emigre groups and foreign intelligence services back them.  By one means or another, Yakushev agreed to cooperate and set up the metting for Kolesnikov, in reality a Polish Chekists named Stretkovich.<<
 
There were Polish Chekists.  
 
How much the SIS knew, wished they knew or didn't know about the TRUST in it's early stages should be a book all to itself.  How THE SIS reacted once this information reached their boss and what agents SIS used to combat the TRUST is worth a couple of dozen more books,  I'm sure.
 
 THE CHEKA, LENIN'S POLICIAL POLICE by George Leggett, p. 294
>>...Lenin had instructed Dzerzhinsky to devise means of neutralising the machinations of such emigre bodies, and ways of preventing the creation of emigre combat units capable of effecting trans-border raids into Soviet territory.  In pompt responce on 5 December, Dzerzhinsky issued a secret directive order that 'for the detection of foreign agencies in our territories there be organissed pretended White Guard Associations', their purpose being to penetrate the most hostile emigre groups and lure their agents back to Russia; this was the provocation gambit which would develope into the classic Soviet deception opersations, Sidikat-2 and the  Trust, master-minded by KRO in the early 1920s, Dzerzhinsky'[s directive further proposed an increase in the number os hostages taken from the relatives in Russia of prominent emigres, and the formation of special detachments intended to carry out acts of terrorism against enemies of the Soviet sate living on foreign soil.<<


All of this seems to have been written in the future conditional, i.e. these things were "proposed", "there be organised pretended White"; does this source actually say that these things were done? My impression from Phil's post is that there was a lot of disinformation put out about TRUST at a later date.
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Offline AGRBear

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Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
« Reply #18 on: January 04, 2006, 06:28:45 PM »
Bear:
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>>It also worked in reverse p. 495 ALEXANDER ORLOV: THE FBI'S KGB GENERAL by Eduard Gazur:
 
>>The fictitious creation came to be known as the TRUST, after the Russian word "Trest", the so-called 'Monarchist Organisation of Central Russia', and became the vehicle which fed misinformation to the Western Powers.  In time, th TRUST was the avenue by which the prime enemies of the state were lured back to Russia and executed.  Sidney Reilly and Boris Savinkov, the fanatical White Russian General who ran the anti-Bolshevik organisation People's Union for the Defense of the Homeland and Freedom from abroad, would both be successfully lured back to Russia and their deaths by the TRUST.  The third prize target of the TRUST was General Kutyepov, the head of the ROVS, who was kidnapped off the streets of Paris in 1930 by the KBG and was eliminated.<<



Quote

Having said that, as well as Kutyepov the OGPU also kidnapped General Miller (his successor) from Paris and took him back to the USSR for Stalin's pleasure.

Phil Tomaselli

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
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Offline Louis_Charles

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Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
« Reply #19 on: January 04, 2006, 09:54:42 PM »
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In time, th TRUST was the avenue by which the prime enemies of the state were lured back to Russia and executed.



So the conclusion is then that the Romanovs were not viewed as the prime enemies of the state during the 1920-1940 period, since the alleged TRUST did not spend time luring them back into Soviet control.

Which I think also undercuts the idea that there was vast amounts of Tsarist money abroad. Surely this would have made someone like, say, Maria Feodorovna, a prime target for Soviet agents, no? Kidnap the heirs to the Tsar and hold them hostage until the funds were released?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Louis_Charles »
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Offline AGRBear

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Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
« Reply #20 on: January 05, 2006, 11:29:01 AM »
Only if they had known where the money was and it's obvious that no one but Nicholas II and maybe Alexandra knew where they placed any money.

The only time I remember a spark of interest is when.....


Well,  we have gotten off the subject about Michael living in England.

There is a thread about What Would Anastasia Inherited If She Had Survived:

http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=anastasia;action=display;num=1098804752;start=0#0

We can go talk there about money hidden in foreign countires over there.

From what I can gather,  GD Nicholas was the only Romanov who sparked any kind of serious interest in Moscow.

Perhaps Phil can answer your question better than I.

I'd love to know more about GD Nicholas anti-Bolshevik actitities after he left Russia.  


AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline ALEXEI_P

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Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
« Reply #21 on: January 13, 2006, 06:08:15 PM »
AGRBear,

Have your read "The Flight of the Romanovs'(Perry/Pleshankov-Basic Books 1999)?  There is some information on NN and the Bolsheviks there.  I found it to be a very interesting book in general.

Alexei

Offline Amanda_Misha

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Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
« Reply #22 on: March 14, 2007, 02:50:56 PM »
I read in one it paginates a little of internet strange that Michael didn't die that I am able to escape wounded and I arrive at a monastery where they changed their identity and he lived as monk until they send it to a field of Stanlin and it dies there for the conditions of the place.
This it is the first link where it begins this history  http://www.philosophi.org/lasttsar.htm
and in this he comes the continuation and the comparison of the pictures among Michael and the monk that said it was the one
http://www.philosophi.org/russkiy_tsar.htm
In my opinion I don't believe in this plaintiff if Michael had survived monk had not been made, he would have returned beside Nathasa and of George, it is very similar to the story that Anastasia survived and nun became.
 ¿You that they say on this case?
 :)
"And now, remembering this man, I wonder how You, Russia, will wash away his innocent blood? Will you ultimately be able to redeem the death of Michael the Last?"

www.freewebs.com/georgeromanov

Offline dmitri

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Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
« Reply #23 on: April 26, 2007, 01:44:16 AM »
I guess Johnson survived as well. What a joke! They both were shot to death.

Offline Lemur

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Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
« Reply #24 on: April 26, 2007, 09:31:37 AM »
I guess Johnson survived as well. What a joke! They both were shot to death.

Is there any proof they died? No one ever found the bodies ;)

This is an interesting tale though, and a nice fresh change from all the Anna Anderson redundancy. Thanks for posting.

Offline Amanda_Misha

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Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
« Reply #25 on: May 29, 2007, 08:00:00 PM »
Thank you for his her answers :)
It is believed that they have not found the bodies of Michael Romanov and Brian Johnson by that they were cremated or in a nearby factory or there in the forest  or that on where they buried them now there is offices or a parking
Out of the testimonies of his her assassins there is no proof of the death of any of the two
"And now, remembering this man, I wonder how You, Russia, will wash away his innocent blood? Will you ultimately be able to redeem the death of Michael the Last?"

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Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
« Reply #26 on: June 01, 2007, 02:18:25 AM »
Thank you for his her answers :)
It is believed that they have not found the bodies of Michael Romanov and Brian Johnson by that they were cremated or in a nearby factory or there in the forest  or that on where they buried them now there is offices or a parking
Out of the testimonies of his her assassins there is no proof of the death of any of the two


There is most certainly proof of death of both of these men, even without bodies. Johnson's wife never heard from her husband again. Not ever. Natasha never heard from her husband again. Not ever. Both men were in love with their wives and indeed sought to keep them safe after Michael's arrest. I disbelieve in Michael's survival because nothing convinces me that he would have abandoned his wife and family.

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Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
« Reply #27 on: June 01, 2007, 02:43:33 AM »
Thank you for his her answers :)
It is believed that they have not found the bodies of Michael Romanov and Brian Johnson by that they were cremated or in a nearby factory or there in the forest  or that on where they buried them now there is offices or a parking
Out of the testimonies of his her assassins there is no proof of the death of any of the two


There is most certainly proof of death of both of these men, even without bodies. Johnson's wife never heard from her husband again. Not ever. Natasha never heard from her husband again. Not ever. Both men were in love with their wives and indeed sought to keep them safe after Michael's arrest. I disbelieve in Michael's survival because nothing convinces me that he would have abandoned his wife and family.
But Lisa, what you have stated is the obvious, but can certainly not be the same as "proof". Proof is something irrefutable. It's something that no one can argue with.

Offline Amanda_Misha

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Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
« Reply #28 on: June 01, 2007, 07:25:24 PM »
Always I have wondered for that nobody I demand to be Michael if his her body I do not find.
"And now, remembering this man, I wonder how You, Russia, will wash away his innocent blood? Will you ultimately be able to redeem the death of Michael the Last?"

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Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
« Reply #29 on: June 02, 2007, 12:37:19 AM »
Thank you for his her answers :)
It is believed that they have not found the bodies of Michael Romanov and Brian Johnson by that they were cremated or in a nearby factory or there in the forest  or that on where they buried them now there is offices or a parking
Out of the testimonies of his her assassins there is no proof of the death of any of the two


There is most certainly proof of death of both of these men, even without bodies. Johnson's wife never heard from her husband again. Not ever. Natasha never heard from her husband again. Not ever. Both men were in love with their wives and indeed sought to keep them safe after Michael's arrest. I disbelieve in Michael's survival because nothing convinces me that he would have abandoned his wife and family.
But Lisa, what you have stated is the obvious, but can certainly not be the same as "proof". Proof is something irrefutable. It's something that no one can argue with.

Actually, I believe you have overstated the definition of "proof". I just re-checked my dictionary to see if anything had changed (or if I had been misusing the word) - and it has not. Proof is defined as "evidence sufficient to establish a thing as true, or to produce belief in its truth".

Let's look at an example. In my opinion, there was more than enough proof that O.J. Simpson murdered his ex-wife. As you know, the jury in his criminal trial disagreed with me - finding that there was not enough "proof" to convict him. Clearly, proof does not always preclude argument.

You say my statement is obvious - perhaps. But, in order to believe in the survival of Michael, one has to disregard nearly all obvious truths about the man- including the most obvious, which was that he was a man very much in love with his wife and completely unlikely to abandon her.