The Alexander Palace Time Machine Discussion Forum
 
 User Info & Key Stats   
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
April 19, 2014, 07:49:35 AM
458623 Posts in 8879 Topics by 8295 Members
Latest Member: cranewoods
News: We think Pallasart is the best web design company in Austin and for good reason - they make this forum possible! Looking for a website? Call them at 512 469-7454.
+  The Alexander Palace Time Machine Discussion Forum
|-+  Discussions about Russian History
| |-+  Imperial Russian History (Moderators: LisaDavidson, Forum Admin)
| | |-+  Gregorian vs Julian Dates - What Should We Use To Celebrate Russian Birthdays?
  0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
Pages: [1] Go Down Print
Author
Topic: Gregorian vs Julian Dates - What Should We Use To Celebrate Russian Birthdays?  (Read 4276 times)
« on: August 05, 2004, 04:46:31 PM »
Annie Offline
Velikye Knyaz
****
Posts: 4757

View Profile WWW

I have always wondered, when they were on the old style calendar, where did the other 13 days go? Did some months not have as many days, or did the end of the year have more, did they even have 365 days?

On an offbeat note, how did this affect people's astrological signs when it changed? With a 13 day difference, several people's 'horoscope' sign changed. So what 'sign' were they really born under?
Logged
Reply #1
« on: August 06, 2004, 04:08:51 AM »
DOMOVOII Offline
Boyar
**
Crikey chief!! Posts: 126

View Profile

That we all believe the first of January to be the first of January, is testament to the power of mankind.

Our lives aren't shortened when we adjust clocks, say for summertime, (or is that an arcane British tendency- BST?) we simply adjust our concept of it. We could all adopt a calender that runs backwards if we wished. Confusing you may think but no more than assuming that Monday has to follow Sunday for example.

Similarly when the Gregorian calender was adopted in England, 200 odd years before Russia, their was the inevitable outcry that 10 days worth of living were "stolen"... but life still happened, everyone rose for breakfast the following morning.

This shift in meaning happens elsewhere, remember when the EU switched to Euros from National currencies, a loaf of bread was worth the same amount it just had a different cost on the price tag. (Perhaps a bad analogy, I know myself that lots of businesses used the opportunity to hoik (raise) their prices, but the principle is right I think)

Thinking about it the only calender items you couldn't shift in such a way would be things like solstices and equinox? , and it's been a very long time since people used these as significant calender events, (I'm thinking of the pre-christian druids, Pagans, Stonehenge etc?) Prescribed by the rotation of the planet, it's seasons and not it's inhabitants. 1 revolution every 24:04 or so hours. 365 1/4 day a year. (To explain, the odd mins each day are massed into a quarter day, that every four years is celebrated as the 29th of Feb or Leap year)

Man is the only creature to wear a watch!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by DOMOVOII » Logged

A stand can be taken against an army of men, but no stand can be made against an invasion of an idea          V Hugo
Reply #2
« on: August 06, 2004, 08:17:43 PM »
Annie Offline
Velikye Knyaz
****
Posts: 4757

View Profile WWW

Thanks, it was more complicated than I thought Tongue
Logged
Reply #3
« on: October 31, 2004, 07:10:44 PM »
Georgiy Offline
Velikye Knyaz
****
Slava v vyshnikh Bogu Posts: 1989

View Profile

As an answer to Annie, the other 13 days didn't go anywhere. It is just that Russia used the old Roman calender. In the west, the Pope introduced a different calendar in the 1500s, and by the 20th century, there was a gap of 13 days between the 2 calendars. In the Russian Orthodox Church we still use the old (Julian) calendar. So for us Christmas, December 25, falls on January 7 according to the western calendar - it is still December 25, but 13 days out of synch compared to the Gregorian calendar.
Logged
Reply #4
« on: October 12, 2006, 03:38:56 PM »
Rodney_G. Offline
Knyaz
****
an angel .....and the best of them Posts: 660

View Profile

   
   Dear FA,
 
   Please bear with me: I couldn't find an appropriate thread.
   
   I understand the date differential between the Julian and Gregorian calendars perfectly well. One is still left with a very significant question: on which calendar system do we in the present Western (and Russian)world recognize pre-February 1st,1918 dates? For example, when do we mark Nicholas II's birthday? It was May 6,1868 in his world; May18,1868 on an English calendar.

  In any case, seventy years later scientifically speaking (leap years aside) would have been May 19,1938 . Yet for most people it would be (is) very hard psychologically to think of important personal life dates as other than the date they happened in that year. I couldn't imagine celebrating my daughter's twenty-fifth birthday on June 28, 1920 if she was born June15, 1895 !
 
  This becomes an even more unthinkable choice in view of the fact that the change in dates was the result of a decision in Jan.1918 by a group of Bolsheviks with blood  figuratively ,on their hands.

  It's amazing that  after February1st,1918, the approximately 150 million people then living in Russia had a new birthday if they accepted the conversion to the new calendar!

 I'd really like to have some comment by anyone who knows about how , i.e. , on which calendar , most people, both Russian and non-Russian, remembered the past. I think this  question is resolved even today.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2009, 08:23:14 AM by Alixz » Logged

Rodney G.
Reply #5
« on: November 21, 2008, 09:22:48 AM »
Jebediha
Guest

When it comes to the birthday of the imperial family. Should you use the Julian calender witch they had in Russia when they walked this planet. Or the Gregorian calender witch is the correct one or are they both correct ?

Logged
Reply #6
« on: November 21, 2008, 09:44:18 AM »
Sarushka Offline
Velikye Knyaz
****
May I interest you in a grain of salt? Posts: 6406

View Profile WWW

Think of difference between the two calendars as a HUGE time zone. If you want to wish someone in another time zone a happy new year, you don't call at midnight your time -- you call at midnight *their* time, when they're celebrating. The MOMENT is the same, but the clocks label it differently.

Therefore...
Olga Nikolaevna's birth date is 3/16 November. She was born on the 3rd according to the Julian calendar, but that date is now the 16th according to the Gregorian calendar, so you would celebrate on the 16th. As in the time zone example, the DAY is the same, but the two calendars label it differently.

Here's a site that will show you how the two calendars correspond this year:

http://5ko.free.fr/en/jul.php?y=2008


In future, please search to see if topics you're interested in have already been discussed before starting a new thread. This question has been covered many times in the past.
Logged

THE LOST CROWN: A Novel of Romanov Russia -- now in paperback!
"A dramatic, powerful narrative and a masterful grasp of life in this vanished world." ~Greg King
Reply #7
« on: April 06, 2009, 07:57:18 PM »
Alixz
Guest

Actually, I think this is a very good question.

I don't think it is a matter of thousands of people having new birthdays, I think that by wrenching Russia from the Julian calendar to the Gregorian, Lenin & Co, just made a lot of people a year older all at once.

It was important to get off the Julian calendar in order to be on the same page as the rest of the world.  It also began the need for O/S and N/S explanations of dates in all subsequent books.

I like to use the Julian until February 1, 1918 and then the Gregorian after that.

The only time that O/S needs to converted to N/S is when the Russians visited other countries because the other countries show the visits on the Gregorian calendar.

Probably most of the Russians who lived through the conversion are now gone and the need to worry about their birthdays and names days  being moved up by 13 days in 1918 seems to have been figured out and smoothed over.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2009, 08:09:51 AM by Alixz » Logged
Reply #8
« on: April 07, 2009, 01:38:38 PM »
LisaDavidson Offline
Moderator
Velikye Knyaz
*****
Posts: 2605

View Profile

Actually, I think this is a very good question.

I don't think it is a matter of thousands of people having new birthdays, I think that by wrenching Russia from the Julian calendar to the Georgian, Lenin & Co, just made a lot of people a year older all at once.

It was important to get off the Julian calendar in order to be on the same page as the rest of the world.  It also began the need for O/S and N/S explanations of dates in all subsequent books.

I like to use the Julian until February 1, 1918 and then the Georgian after that.

The only time that O/S needs to converted to N/S is when the Russians visited other countries because the other countries show the visits on the Georgian calendar.

Probably most of the Russians who lived through the conversion are now gone and the need to worry about their birthdays and names days  being moved up by 13 days in 1918 seems to have been figured out and smoothed over.


That's Gregorian calendar, though I understand what you meant by Georgian.

My only comments on this - I think that people with interests outside of Russia probably did some dual dating to avoid confusion in the years before the official change. And, those who lived through the Revo and Civil War had so many difficulties that a birthday change was probably the least of their problems.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2009, 01:02:36 PM by LisaDavidson » Logged
Reply #9
« on: April 07, 2009, 04:10:59 PM »
Rodney_G. Offline
Knyaz
****
an angel .....and the best of them Posts: 660

View Profile

 First, I can't believe I wrote Georgian instead of  Gregorian in the topic title. Yikes. Second, I can't believe no one corrected me sooner. And in any case , interesting replies two and a half years later.

Actually, I think this is a very good question.

I don't think it is a matter of thousands of people having new birthdays, I think that by wrenching Russia from the Julian calendar to the Georgian, Lenin & Co, just made a lot of people a year older all at once.

It was important to get off the Julian calendar in order to be on the same page as the rest of the world.  It also began the need for O/S and N/S explanations of dates in all subsequent books.

I like to use the Julian until February 1, 1918 and then the Georgian after that.

The only time that O/S needs to converted to N/S is when the Russians visited other countries because the other countries show the visits on the Georgian calendar.

Probably most of the Russians who lived through the conversion are now gone and the need to worry about their birthdays and names days  being moved up by 13 days in 1918 seems to have been figured out and smoothed over.


It's true that most of those who lived through the conversion are gone but the desire to get the date right for anyone born pre-conversion may be as strong as ever for all those now alive or yet to be born. When present day Russians want to note great grandfather Boris' birthday, what date (calendar) comes to mind? And for example do Russians now looking at old church plaques or tombstones do the mental calculation about these old folks?
Also, it's not just  a matter of birthdays or name days. It's a matter of knowing or appreciating the 'correct' date for all sorts of historical events. And one can use the word 'historical' pretty loosely.

And of course prior to the calendar conversion we had this weirdness: In , say 1902, traveling east from Germany or Austria into Russia, did people get to relive their recent past ? If you boarded a train in Berlin on March 20th, you would be buying a newspaper at the Warsaw or any other Russian train station with the date March 7th. How weird was that?


In any case , for us on this forum, I guess we can continue to do our OS/ NS thing as necessary. For myself, I first learned of the significant (or even not so significant) Romanov dates as they were on the contemporaneous Russian calendar and continue to think of them as Old Style.

Logged

Rodney G.
Reply #10
« on: April 08, 2009, 06:18:46 AM »
Alixz
Guest

Rodney - That may have been my fault.  I know that it is Gregorian but sometimes Georgian just types out of my fingers.

As a Mod, I moved your question from the Discussion Thread to here to give it more exposure.  I thought it was lost up in Discussion and that was why you weren't getting any response.

All part of "spring cleaning" that the Mods are doing.

By the way, I just got the green light to "mod" here so I changed the wrong spelling.

Alixz
« Last Edit: April 11, 2009, 08:08:44 AM by Alixz » Logged
Reply #11
« on: April 11, 2009, 08:21:46 AM »
Alixz
Guest

But Rodney - I see what you are asking.  If we, today, want to celebrate Nicholas's birthday, do we do it O/S or N/S or N/S plus another day because we moved into a new century.

I would guess that we would have to go with N/S plus one as that is where were are.

However, since being born on Job's Day, which was May 6 O/S was such a big factor in Nicholas's self opinion, it would seem that we would have to go by O/S.  Moving it to May 18 Gregorian would take it off of Job's Day and complicate the description of an already complicated and convoluted individual.

Would Nicholas have been as fatalistic if he HAD celebrated his birth on May 18?  I am not that familiar with the Saint's Days of the Russian Orthodox Church, but May 18 probably belongs to a different saint which might have given Nicholas a different outlook on himself and on his own life.

« Last Edit: April 11, 2009, 09:20:38 AM by Alixz » Logged
Reply #12
« on: April 11, 2009, 08:35:00 AM »
nena Offline
Velikye Knyaz
****
One day more without you..... Posts: 2772

View Profile

Correct, birthday of Tsar Nicholas II matches as Stt. John's Saint day (May 6), he once deeply though about his birthday, since that Saint died in similar way as Nicholas died in 1918.

So, Nicholas would celebrate his b-day on May 6th. Russian country accepted Gregorian calendar in 1918 or 1919, not sure, but Orthodox Church still uses Julian one. (Especially when celebrates Saint days, Christmas, Easter, etc., etc. ).


N.
Logged


(Thanks to Emily!)
-Ars longa, vita brevis -
Mathematics, art and history in ♥
Reply #13
« on: April 11, 2009, 09:22:04 AM »
Alixz
Guest

Lenin put the country on the Gregorian Calendar on February 1, 1918.
Logged
Reply #14
« on: April 11, 2009, 10:11:11 AM »
nena Offline
Velikye Knyaz
****
One day more without you..... Posts: 2772

View Profile

Oh, I see now. Thank you.  ;-)
Logged


(Thanks to Emily!)
-Ars longa, vita brevis -
Mathematics, art and history in ♥
Pages: [1] Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS! Website by Pallasart - Austin Web Design