Author Topic: Without DNA  (Read 20101 times)

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Offline AGRBear

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Re: Without DNA
« Reply #15 on: January 08, 2006, 11:25:59 AM »
The photos are  from WITH THE ARMIES OF THE TSAR, A NURSE AT THE RUSSIAN FRONT 1914-18 by Florence Farmbourough.

Here is another:




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#60.

There was a German intelligence offier in the Ukraine, Lt. Col. Werner Hassenstein, who testified in 1953 [I assume at AA's trial] he knew about Grand Duchess Anastasia who was lying wounded in a peasant cart in Sept. 1918 and that she was taken to the grounds of the German Embassy in Bucharest.

p. 382 listed in  Sources and Notes of THE FILE ON THE TSAR by Summers and Mangold.


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« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
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Offline AGRBear

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Re: Without DNA
« Reply #16 on: January 08, 2006, 12:08:07 PM »
Odessa [red dot]
\



It is about 260 additional miles  from Odessa  (red dot) to Budapest.

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« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

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Offline Louis_Charles

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Re: Without DNA
« Reply #17 on: January 08, 2006, 12:34:04 PM »
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Since we don't know what kind of injuries, if any, the GD Anastasia indured,  we can't know if she would have survived a trip from Ekaterinburg to Budapest.


Bear,

I'm not going to mention the irrelevancy of your family memories to this situation, since you did that for me (boy, are we full-service posters or WHAT?)   However, I was struck by this sentence. Are you suggesting that she wasn't injured in the basement? It flies in the face of Andersen's own testimony.

If your response is along the lines of "we don't know what happened", then I would respectfully suggest that there is absolutely nothing to be contributed that can withstand scrutiny.

Simon

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Offline AGRBear

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Re: Without DNA
« Reply #18 on: January 08, 2006, 01:49:31 PM »
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Bear,

I'm not going to mention the irrelevancy of your family memories to this situation, since you did that for me (boy, are we full-service posters or WHAT?)   However, I was struck by this sentence. Are you suggesting that she wasn't injured in the basement? It flies in the face of Andersen's own testimony.

If your response is along the lines of "we don't know what happened", then I would respectfully suggest that there is absolutely nothing to be contributed that can withstand scrutiny.

Simon

 


Perhaps,  Anna Anderson, if we are to believe she was not GD Anastasia, like most posters here,  made the  wrong assumptions about GD Anstasia's injuries....

What was it that Mark Twain said about his own obit which he read and discovered some people thought he had died?  Something about his death having been greatly exagerated....


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« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Annie

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Re: Without DNA
« Reply #19 on: January 08, 2006, 04:08:18 PM »
Bear, for the umpteenth time, I will say the same thing I do whenever you post those pictures. I am not doubting it was possible to make it  3000 miles by cart! Hell, thousands of American pioneers made it from the east coast to Oregon territory by covered wagon.

What I'm saying is, it is impossible for someone who was allegedly gravely injured, bleeding profusely, infection likely, with no medical care, no food, no supplies, no shelter (armies and pioneer familes either have or can find all of those things, not a fleeing Grand Duchess having to hide from everyone!) over several months, poor conditions and all kinds of weather and still survive. Yes, it is ridiculous. There is no reason to retrace the route taken by AA and the ficticious Alex T. since it never happened.

I am not even going to bother to answer Caleb's posts, since I am not chasing my tail, I have already answered them all in my previous commentary.

I was going to continue this thread with more reasons and commentary and evidence, but now I'm not going to bother. It's a waste of time, it falls on deaf ears, blind eyes, heads so full of either cotton wool or the clouds of fantasyland the truth will never be seen. Add me to a long list of sensible, helpful posters who are not going to waste their time as long as wild fiction is alllowed to run free to mislead those using this site for real information.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Annie »

Offline Grand_Duke_Paul

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Re: Without DNA
« Reply #20 on: January 08, 2006, 04:28:45 PM »
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No.

Reasons:
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1. Her picture looks much more like Fransizka Schanskowska than Anastasia. She looked too old to be Anastasia, and had different bone structure, chin shape, lips, and nose.


All a matter of opinion, I am sure we can produce people who say it does & doesn't look like her.  It just depends on what the viewer sees.  Also I am sure that anthropological experts could have an opinion either way.

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2. Her story of escape by cart, travelling a distance of almost 3000 miles on muddy back roads with no food or medical care for someone so horribly injured just isn't realistic. I think when she  made up the story, she didn't realize just how far it was from Ekaterinburg to Bucharest. The trip would have taken over a year to make, including brutal Russian winters. It's absolutely ridiculous.

Also, her alleged rescuer, Alexander Tchiakovsky, has never been found or even proven to have ever existed. His name sounds made up, like Jan Brady's 'George Glass' boyfriend. Seems like when asked to come up with a name, Alexander, the most popular Russian name came to mind, and, come on now, what about a last name, oh yes, that famous Russian composer Tchiakovsky!


I don't think she is Anastasia, so I think this part the story isn't true, too easy too see through.

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3. She really didn't 'remember' all that much stuff, and of what she did, a lot of it was wrong, like the details of the inside of the palace. This makes me think whoever was telling her the answers had only brief or limited access to the palace, and remembered it wrong. She also got the finger story wrong, it was Marie, not Anastasia. Again, it seems her source of info heard or remembered wrong. There is NOTHING she 'remembered' that cannot be explained away as being told to her, either intentionally or incidently in conversation, by someone who had known the IF. Europe was full of Russian refugees and emigres' at that time, the chances she met and talked to them are very high. Whether or not these people intentionally fed her info as part of a plot to help her claim a fortune, or were innocently talking we will never know. If they were doing it on purpose, they certainly aren't going to tell anyone, or leave any 'proof' lying around.

You can't even rule out that this 'man with the pockets' hadn't told her the story before, or that he wasn't perhaps helping her in hopes of a cut of the fortune should it materialize. Her biggest supporter, Gleb Botkin, had contact with the family, had been to the palaces and was with them until they were taken to Ekaterinburg. He would have known some thing to tell her. Realistically, her claim never took off until she met him. He was a journalist in NYC, and what a fascinating story this was! Interesting that she never really hit the courtroom, or the international press on any large scale, until after she took up with him. While many supporters bash family members for lying for money, it is inconceivable to me they can't see the other side, that it is very likely it was her supporters who did this!

Another factor, who verified her 'memories' as right or wrong? The family was very private, and they were all dead. So who was it who said she 'knew things no one else could have known?' How could this even be checked up on?


This is all subjective, meaning your opinion.  While Bear's family stories have no place here, neither does anything but fact.  She did know information, and when you prove HOW she was fed that information beyond a shadow of a doubt through visitors logs at the hospitals and sanitarioum's, just not through the Russian Emigre's that were inhabiting Berlin, then my mind would be more open to your version of events, however this is something that you slough off to chance, which I cannot.


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4. Recogntions- Olga A. and Gilliard may have been emotional and hopeful at first, but I don't consider their comments to be open acceptance of AA. They sound more like heartbroken people struggling with what they want vs. what is real. I know Olga wanted AN to be alive, but it wasn't her. Initial, emotional, hopeful reactions are common, like I told you about my friend whose dog was lost, and she was so happy to find one like him she took the wrong one home, only to realize later after closer inspection that it wasn't him after all.

There are those who claim that Olga did it for money. WHAT money?? Olga was the black sheep of the family with the 'wrong' marriage. She was never benefit of much family money, living on an old dirt farm, dressing like a common washerwoman (there are pics) and dying in a one room apartment over a barber shop in Canada. Some rich, lavish lifestyle as her payoff for denying AN, suuurre! For those of you who still think she's 'greedy', think about this: the family didn't think much of her and didn't give her  much, but if she could have claimed and accepted a real Anastasia, she could have gotten Anastasia to fight for the money, and then they'd both share it! She'd have been much better off doing this, but she couldn't, you see, because AA wasn't really Anastasia, and she knew it.  


Here is another place where I think you are taking too much on assumption.  If you cross out the earlier statements of support & state that they were emotional then the later statements of denial bear the same scrutiny and standard.  While I don't believe she was Anastasia, I am of the opinion that when the first met her they (meaning Olga & Gillard DID), that is important.
As far as money goes well, there is enough motive to go around in the Romanov family, while Olga might not have financial motivations, none the less she succumbed to the pressure put up on her by others.

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I feel very sorry for Olga, she loved her niece and was close to them all, yet had to endure the torture of claimants pestering her all her life. As for Ernie, he is so often villianized as being against AA for saying he went to Russia in 1916.  

But consider this.
1. There is NO PROOF this trip ever took place.
2. The goverment and monarch had fallen, he could not possibly have lost more than he already had even if it were true, and since Alix was his sister, it was not like it would have been a spy mission but a family one. Either way, it didn't happen.
3. Ernie is hated by AA supporters for hiring the PI to find FS's true identity, and it turns out he was right. Ernie was heartbroken over losing his nieces, nephew and 2 sisters to the revolution, and imposters only brought that pain back up. He wanted them to shut up and go away, because it was wrong they were using his family's horrible tragedy to try to get fame and money. Isn't that how you'd feel?
4. Ernie died before the trial even started, so I don't know how he can be blamed for rigging it. Ernie's family died in a plane crash in 1937, the year before the trial started. If you want conspiracy theories, you can surmise that the AA supporters sabotaged the plane! See, this stuff can go both ways!


I understand Greg's book on Ernie will address this trip, and there is proof on either side.  While it is not besmirching his character to say that he made the trip in an offer of peace through Germany, it is more besmirching his character to think that he would have denied her for her supposed knowledge of this.  There is enough proof to make the supposed visit a possibility in my opinion.  Can't be ruled out completely.

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I can sit here all day and pick apart the inconsistencies in the others who recognized her, but I'll need a lot more room.

I will finish my report in another post.


I can pick apart the inconsistencies in your arguments also, it does work both ways.  Let's remember that in this thread it is without DNA, so we are dealing with the case on an entirely circumstantial evidence, available at the time.
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Offline Annie

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Re: Without DNA
« Reply #21 on: January 08, 2006, 04:36:56 PM »
I am only giving reasonable explainations of what likely occured but can never be proven because no records are made of such things. They all make perfect sense considering AA was not AN, there has to be reasons for it all.

Once again, I fail to understand posters who announce they don't think AA was AN, yet every post they make fights for her case tooth and nail.

I have said what I think, I stand behind it all, but I'm not going to bother to add more.

Offline catt.sydney

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Re: Without DNA
« Reply #22 on: January 08, 2006, 05:45:39 PM »
Regarding the much contested photographs.... :-/
     I must say simply that they are all photos of bipedal mammals - more exactly- of humans - caucasian females from within the last 100 years...beyond that, well  -- I look more like Anastasia Nicholevna than does Miss Unknown!

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Offline Georgiy

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Re: Without DNA
« Reply #23 on: January 08, 2006, 05:48:50 PM »
Even without DNA I don't think I'd have believed. Even when I was younger and thought "Wouldn't it be nice if someone had survived...." I never thought AA looked much like Anastasia. Knowing more these days than back then about the IF makes me even more certain that AA was an imposter. She didn't even cross herself correctly - as I've pointed out elsewhere, this is an automatic gesture, one which you have been doing all your life - it would be very difficult to change from crossing in an Orthodox fashion to a Catholic fashion. (The same with Margda Boodts - her story shows she is very well aquainted with the Catholic faith, but not with Orthodoxy.)

Annie, just a little quibble - Anastasia couldn't have had an icon of Rasputin as he is not a Saint - maybe she had a photo of him or a painting, but not an icon.

Offline Louis_Charles

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Re: Without DNA
« Reply #24 on: January 08, 2006, 05:49:56 PM »
Quote

All a matter of opinion, I am sure we can produce people who say it does & doesn't look like her.  It just depends on what the viewer sees.  Also I am sure that anthropological experts could have an opinion either way.


I don't think she is Anastasia, so I think this part the story isn't true, too easy too see through.


I'm curious. Why don't you think she was Anastasia? There are coherent reasons for thinking she was Franziska Schanzkowska. But if she wasn't, why don't you think she was Anastasia? And if you don't think she was, how do you explain your theory that Olga and Gilliard recognized her in Berlin? So much of what people who believe her claim use is evidence such as graphology, physical resemblance --- which I don't see, but obviously they do --- and other circumstantial evidence. They accept testimonies such as Dassel's "Man with the pockets" and similar things that "only" the real Anastasia could have known. So if she wasn't Schanzkowska, why don't you think she was Anastasia?


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This is all subjective, meaning your opinion. While Bear's family stories have no place here, neither does anything but fact.  She did know information, and when you prove HOW she was fed that information beyond a shadow of a doubt through visitors logs at the hospitals and sanitarioum's, just not through the Russian Emigre's that were inhabiting Berlin, then my mind would be more open to your version of events, however this is something that you slough off to chance, which I cannot.


The only "fact" currently in evidence is the DNA. FA and several others have demostrated that it cannot be impeached. The mathematical certainty that she was Franziska is extremely high (cf. the postings of P_Wadia). Everything else seems to be open to argument. I mean, this isn't a case of you say tomato, I say tomahto. You can look at a picture of Andersen and see Anastasia. I look at it and see as much resemblance to an Edsel.



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Here is another place where I think you are taking too much on assumption.  If you cross out the earlier statements of support & state that they were emotional then the later statements of denial bear the same scrutiny and standard.  While I don't believe she was Anastasia, I am of the opinion that when the first met her they (meaning Olga & Gillard DID), that is important.
As far as money goes well, there is enough motive to go around in the Romanov family, while Olga might not have financial motivations, none the less she succumbed to the pressure put up on her by others.


I'm sorry. Is there any evidence that Olga "succumbed" to the pressure put upon her by others? Are we allowed to state that Lili Dehn "succumbed" to pressure put upon her by Andersen's supporters when she recognized her? This is the kind of statement that gets tossed into the ring a bit too easily. And in fact, the later statements of denial would have allowed time for deliberation, so the argument that they must also be treated as "emotional" is shaky.


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I understand Greg's book on Ernie will address this trip, and there is proof on either side.  While it is not besmirching his character to say that he made the trip in an offer of peace through Germany, it is more besmirching his character to think that he would have denied her for her supposed knowledge of this. There is enough proof to make the supposed visit a possibility in my opinion.  Can't be ruled out completely.


I can pick apart the inconsistencies in your arguments also, it does work both ways.  Let's remember that in this thread it is without DNA, so we are dealing with the case on an entirely circumstantial evidence, available at the time.


If the trip's proof exists, it was ignored by every biographer of Wilhelm II, and I have yet to uncover a reference to this trip in any standard history of WW2 (and by standard, I mean ones that have been accessible through an academic library). When I have mentioned this to Bear, she dismisses it because she can think of no reason Dmitri Gallitzine, who testified to the trip forty years later, might have lied. Of course, she also admits that she knows nothing of the character of Gallitzine, but nevertheless, his word is good enough to make the trip probable.

I bring this up because I think Annie's post addresses an interesting issue. If you (and by you I don't just mean you, GD Paul, but anyone who posts this opinion)  don't think she was Anastasia, why do you insist that the circumstantial evidence is so strong? In fact, why do you invent circumstantial evidence? (Bear, I'm looking at you.) You postulate a trip that "could" have taken place as though it did take place, when we have no evidence other than Andersen's testimony that it did so. You know. Andersen. Who wasn't actually a wounded Grand Duchess in the back of a cart, if she wasn't Anastasia.

Regards,

Simon


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Louis_Charles »
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Offline catt.sydney

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Re: Without DNA
« Reply #25 on: January 08, 2006, 05:51:28 PM »
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Why is it that Annie can post whatever she feels but if someone disagrees with her and suggest that this woman was obviously Anastasia, their post is immediatly deleted. The purpose of a 'Survivors' forum is to do just that, discuss possible survivors of the Ekaterinburg massare which Anastasia might well have been. I could produce photos which show that Anna and Anastasia look very much alike, but they would be deleted so I will not even bother.


Don't be so childish! ...The ONLY WAY that a photo would be 'deleated' would be if it were obscene or if YOU or the FA deleated it...If you have them (and they haven't ALREADY been posted) post them.

If you will not post them - then don't tease us- and please be civil.
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Re: Without DNA
« Reply #26 on: January 08, 2006, 05:54:48 PM »
As for the cart story, Anastasia was supposedly taken to a house across the street and then picked up by a guard later after her wounds were treated (according to the tailer in the house across the street).

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Re: Without DNA
« Reply #27 on: January 08, 2006, 06:01:26 PM »
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This photo has been taken in 1920, I think. But so 3 years after the last photo of Anastasia : she really changed quikcly but why not after what you suppose she lived ??? However, I find that getting old, AA  looked liked more Anastasia than when she was young.
  There is any truth in this story.
It was actually a year and a half after the massacre. And here is one of the last photos in Tobolsk. I see a great likeness.





« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by calebGmoney »

Offline catt.sydney

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Re: Without DNA
« Reply #28 on: January 08, 2006, 06:02:57 PM »
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As for the cart story, Anastasia was supposedly taken to a house across the street and then picked up by a guard later after her wounds were treated (according to the tailer in the house across the street).


WHAT tailor?
His name, please?
Sources?
Did HE treat the wounds?

Regarding your new photos -thank you - but, I still see no significant similarity.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by catt.sydney »
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Offline Louis_Charles

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Re: Without DNA
« Reply #29 on: January 08, 2006, 06:03:09 PM »

You see a resemblance?

See, here's the deal, Caleb.

I don't.

Now what?

People have been disputing the resemblance since the early 1920s.


Regards,

Simon

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Louis_Charles »
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