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marina

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Without DNA
« on: January 07, 2006, 07:14:27 AM »
If DNA didn't exist, did you believe Anna Anderson? If no, why? This question is for scepticals of course.

Offline Annie

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Re: Without DNA
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2006, 08:30:12 AM »
No.

Reasons:

1. Her picture looks much more like Fransizka Schanskowska than Anastasia. She looked too old to be Anastasia, and had different bone structure, chin shape, lips, and nose.

2. Her story of escape by cart, travelling a distance of almost 3000 miles on muddy back roads with no food or medical care for someone so horribly injured just isn't realistic. I think when she  made up the story, she didn't realize just how far it was from Ekaterinburg to Bucharest. The trip would have taken over a year to make, including brutal Russian winters. It's absolutely ridiculous.

Also, her alleged rescuer, Alexander Tchiakovsky, has never been found or even proven to have ever existed. His name sounds made up, like Jan Brady's 'George Glass' boyfriend. Seems like when asked to come up with a name, Alexander, the most popular Russian name came to mind, and, come on now, what about a last name, oh yes, that famous Russian composer Tchiakovsky!

3. She really didn't 'remember' all that much stuff, and of what she did, a lot of it was wrong, like the details of the inside of the palace. This makes me think whoever was telling her the answers had only brief or limited access to the palace, and remembered it wrong. She also got the finger story wrong, it was Marie, not Anastasia. Again, it seems her source of info heard or remembered wrong. There is NOTHING she 'remembered' that cannot be explained away as being told to her, either intentionally or incidently in conversation, by someone who had known the IF. Europe was full of Russian refugees and emigres' at that time, the chances she met and talked to them are very high. Whether or not these people intentionally fed her info as part of a plot to help her claim a fortune, or were innocently talking we will never know. If they were doing it on purpose, they certainly aren't going to tell anyone, or leave any 'proof' lying around.

You can't even rule out that this 'man with the pockets' hadn't told her the story before, or that he wasn't perhaps helping her in hopes of a cut of the fortune should it materialize. Her biggest supporter, Gleb Botkin, had contact with the family, had been to the palaces and was with them until they were taken to Ekaterinburg. He would have known some thing to tell her. Realistically, her claim never took off until she met him. He was a journalist in NYC, and what a fascinating story this was! Interesting that she never really hit the courtroom, or the international press on any large scale, until after she took up with him. While many supporters bash family members for lying for money, it is inconceivable to me they can't see the other side, that it is very likely it was her supporters who did this!

Another factor, who verified her 'memories' as right or wrong? The family was very private, and they were all dead. So who was it who said she 'knew things no one else could have known?' How could this even be checked up on?

4. Recogntions- Olga A. and Gilliard may have been emotional and hopeful at first, but I don't consider their comments to be open acceptance of AA. They sound more like heartbroken people struggling with what they want vs. what is real. I know Olga wanted AN to be alive, but it wasn't her. Initial, emotional, hopeful reactions are common, like I told you about my friend whose dog was lost, and she was so happy to find one like him she took the wrong one home, only to realize later after closer inspection that it wasn't him after all.

There are those who claim that Olga did it for money. WHAT money?? Olga was the black sheep of the family with the 'wrong' marriage. She was never benefit of much family money, living on an old dirt farm, dressing like a common washerwoman (there are pics) and dying in a one room apartment over a barber shop in Canada. Some rich, lavish lifestyle as her payoff for denying AN, suuurre! For those of you who still think she's 'greedy', think about this: the family didn't think much of her and didn't give her  much, but if she could have claimed and accepted a real Anastasia, she could have gotten Anastasia to fight for the money, and then they'd both share it! She'd have been much better off doing this, but she couldn't, you see, because AA wasn't really Anastasia, and she knew it.

I feel very sorry for Olga, she loved her niece and was close to them all, yet had to endure the torture of claimants pestering her all her life. As for Ernie, he is so often villianized as being against AA for saying he went to Russia in 1916.

But consider this.
1. There is NO PROOF this trip ever took place.
2. The goverment and monarch had fallen, he could not possibly have lost more than he already had even if it were true, and since Alix was his sister, it was not like it would have been a spy mission but a family one. Either way, it didn't happen.
3. Ernie is hated by AA supporters for hiring the PI to find FS's true identity, and it turns out he was right. Ernie was heartbroken over losing his nieces, nephew and 2 sisters to the revolution, and imposters only brought that pain back up. He wanted them to shut up and go away, because it was wrong they were using his family's horrible tragedy to try to get fame and money. Isn't that how you'd feel?
4. Ernie died before the trial even started, so I don't know how he can be blamed for rigging it. Ernie's family died in a plane crash in 1937, the year before the trial started. If you want conspiracy theories, you can surmise that the AA supporters sabotaged the plane! See, this stuff can go both ways!

I can sit here all day and pick apart the inconsistencies in the others who recognized her, but I'll need a lot more room.

I will finish my report in another post.

Offline Annie

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Re: Without DNA
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2006, 08:46:59 AM »
Others who 'recognized' her. Did they, could they really? Consider these factors:

Lili Dehn and Mathilde K. were both elderly when they met her, and hadn't seen AN in years. I don't believe MK ever even met AN, and was only going by 'Nicky's eyes.' Since they were old, AA was a lot older, too, and no longer looked anything like she did in the 20s, and even then she hadn't looked much like AN. So I must discount both these as emotional elderly ladies wishing for a life long past to return in some form.

Cecile- She was the daughter of Anastasia Mikhailovich, and the wife of the German crown prince. Married off to him at age 18, which was 1904, she left Russia when AN was only 3. She made some visits home, but mostly to see her own family, not the Tsar's. If she did see the Tsar, it was in a social gathering in which small children weren't allowed. Then the war broke out in 1914, and she never returned to Russia. So you see, she didn't really know AN and couldn't have had any contact with her since she was 13. This is the age when people go through adolesence and grow up, changing very much. I  see this as a problem with many people who claimed to see AN in her, they really hadn't seen her grown up because she was in captivity, and their memories of her were very few and faded. It was easy to look at a person they wanted to be her and say, well, maybe she could look like that now, I guess. Because of this, and the fact that Cecile and her husband were known to have become 'eccentric' after the war, I discount her.

Irene's son Sigismund: He only saw AN a few times when they were children, and wouldn't have known her well. They didn't have a close relationship. This story about him writing her a list she answered as 'only AN could have' actually turned out to be just basic stuff any Tsar's daughter, or anyone who knew them, could have known.

Princess Xenia- They hadn't seen each other since they were children. She was mistaken. Could you recognize a cousin you saw a few times in childhood as an adult in later life? Could you even pick them out of a lineup for money? Would you recognize them on the street? I don't think so. Also, later on, Xenia rejected AA feeling she was made a fool of.

Gleb and Tatiana Botkin- two possibilities here, one is that they were in on her claim and helping her by providing the memories, the other is that they were just plain wrong. I personally go with the first, but again, there will never be any proof one way or the other, it's not the kind of thing people go around declaring in public.

Grand Duke Andre'- Olga said in her letter he must be up to something, and I don't doubt it. First, I'm sure Andre had very limited contact with AN. Remember, he was a Vladimirvichi, the branch of the family N and A loathed, so he wasn't that frequent a visitor to the place. When he was, it's likely he never even saw AN. Remember, in those days, a person had to be 16 to attend social gatherings, and AN was not 16 until 1917, after the revolution! So it is a huge factor that most people didn't see much of her.

Andre' was the brother of Kyril, the self proclaimed 'Tsar in Exile.' WHY would that branch of the family want the Tsar's daughter to spring back up? Now, talk about someone out to discredit, I believe Kyril and his bunch WOULD have denied a real AN IF she had turned up, because THEY are the ones who were after whatever money and power that may come to the 'Tsar' and one of his heirs could take it from them. So why would any of them accept her, especially when they didn't even know her that well? I must agree with Olga, something 'vile' must have been going on in their minds. It makes no sense.

Felix Dassell- I hit on this before. First, I don't think he knew her that well, and second, it is a possibility he had fed her, either through himself or someone else, the 'pockets' story before they met.

That's all the supporters I can muster right now, if you give me a name I'll give you my opinion.

I also have much more I want to get into, but don't have time right now.

marina

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Re: Without DNA
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2006, 08:50:35 AM »
So you would have been very very very surprised if DNA test wouldn't have revealed what we know today, I suppose...

Offline Annie

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Re: Without DNA
« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2006, 09:10:13 AM »
Quote
So you would have been very very very surprised if DNA test wouldn't have revealed what we know today, I suppose...


The strange thing is, I used to be someone who believed, or at least hoped, AA was AN. When I heard the DNA results, I got a lump in my throat I was so disappointed. But instead of becoming militantly vicious about a conspiracy as some did, I went the other way, took off the rose colored glasses of what I 'wanted' and started looking at it realistically. The more I looked into it, the more I felt like a fool for ever thinking she could have been AN! Now, with all the things I know now, I am completely convinced she was FS and can't imagine seeing it any other way. She doesn't even look like her, and all the pieces of the puzzle for a fake job add right up. I am going to post more long details later, I have even more reason to believe what I do.

Offline etonexile

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Re: Without DNA
« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2006, 09:29:46 AM »
Wow Annie....You always give the most,clearest detail....U ROCK... 8)

Offline Annie

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Re: Without DNA
« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2006, 11:33:34 AM »
Quote
Wow Annie....You always give the most,clearest detail....U ROCK... 8)


Thank you, I do try :)


Offline Annie

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Re: Without DNA
« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2006, 11:43:09 AM »
Now let's go to who DIDN'T see her. One of Xenia's sons who wanted to meet her was refused. There were a couple people who went to see her and she covered her mouth with a hankie (presumabley to cover that big mouth and thick lips AN didn't have) She must have felt those people would recognize her.

Of those who survived the revolution, perhaps no one left alive had seen AN more and knew her better than Anna Vyrobova. She had lived as practically a member of the family since the time AN was a baby. She spent more time around AN than even Olga A. or Marie F., even going on family vacations with the IF.  So why wasn't this woman consulted? It seems to me that perhaps AA supporters were afraid of Anna, since she 'knew too much.' She could easily expose her as a fraud and hurt the case. But why not just write her off as a liar and money grabber like they had Olga and Ernie? With good reason. She had become an Orthodox nun, so she  wasn't a good target to be called 'liar', and as a nun, she couldn't take money, even bribes, and had no use for it if she did. Since they couldn't discredit her, it was better not to take a chance on her rejection. Tatiana Botkin claimed it was because she was a 'disciple of Rasputin', but this makes no sense since Lil Dehn was also a member of Rasputin's group and they had no problem with her. Also, Anastasia herself thought kindly of Rasputin, like her mother and siblings. She even had an icon of him. So if AA were indeed AN, why would she be bothered by someone liking Father Gregory? If she truly wanted to be accepted, why wouldn't she have wanted to seek out her mother's closest friend?

How about Dmitri Pavlovich? He spent a great deal of time living and/or staying with the IF over the years, he knew the kids on a private basis, not just a social setting. He'd have been a good one to consult. Why wasn't his name ever mentioned? Strange, isn't it? Could it be they thought he too might  have known the real AN too well, and didn't want to chance a  rejection?

Still more reasons to come...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Annie »

Offline Annie

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Re: Without DNA
« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2006, 12:05:32 PM »
Now for a break from my diatribes (which I will continue) here is the photographic evidence. If you look closely you can see the differences in the shape of the chin, jaw, lips, mouth, end of the nose, and even the famouse eyes and ears.

While supporters go out of their way to show you pics of AA posed in the most AN ways, biting her lip to hide the obvious size difference and mocking the famous AN expression. In these pics, the true differences emerge.

Note chin shape, jawline and facial features (AA on left, AN right)



Here's a clearer view of AA's features matched with the same AN pic



I'm not getting any comparison here at all



Check out the very different noses in these slanted side views. The mouths are different, too, though in the posed pic on the right, AA appears to be once again slightly biting her thick lips to disguise them. Her chin is concealed by the boa.



Profiles, again, I don't see a match, not even of the infamous ears. AA is on the right, her bulbous nose partially shadowed, but you can see it clearly in the one above. See again AN's nose and face from the side, not the same structure at all.



AN (left) and AA (right) Note the different lip, mouth, nose and chin shapes



Now compare AA (left) with FS (right)



For those who claim the FS pic  is 'retouched', compare unretouched FS (left) with retouched FS (right)



Here I have used the 'remove graininess' feature to smooth up the old FS pic, but I did nothing to the features themselves. The only thing I feel this proves us that it makes the chin shape clearer, and it it is an even better match for AA's.



I will continue my report later, I have to go for now.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Annie »

calebGmoney

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Re: Without DNA
« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2006, 11:42:56 PM »
Why is it that Annie can post whatever she feels but if someone disagrees with her and suggest that this woman was obviously Anastasia, their post is immediatly deleted. The purpose of a 'Survivors' forum is to do just that, discuss possible survivors of the Ekaterinburg massare which Anastasia might well have been. I could produce photos which show that Anna and Anastasia look very much alike, but they would be deleted so I will not even bother.

calebGmoney

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Re: Without DNA
« Reply #10 on: January 07, 2006, 11:46:48 PM »
Quote
Now for a break from my diatribes (which I will continue) here is the photographic evidence. If you look closely you can see the differences in the shape of the chin, jaw, lips, mouth, end of the nose, and even the famouse eyes and ears.

While supporters go out of their way to show you pics of AA posed in the most AN ways, biting her lip to hide the obvious size difference and mocking the famous AN expression. In these pics, the true differences emerge.

Note chin shape, jawline and facial features (AA on left, AN right)



Here's a clearer view of AA's features matched with the same AN pic



I'm not getting any comparison here at all



Check out the very different noses in these slanted side views. The mouths are different, too, though in the posed pic on the right, AA appears to be once again slightly biting her thick lips to disguise them. Her chin is concealed by the boa.



Profiles, again, I don't see a match, not even of the infamous ears. AA is on the right, her bulbous nose partially shadowed, but you can see it clearly in the one above. See again AN's nose and face from the side, not the same structure at all.



AN (left) and AA (right) Note the different lip, mouth, nose and chin shapes



Now compare AA (left) with FS (right)



For those who claim the FS pic  is 'retouched', compare unretouched FS (left) with retouched FS (right)



Here I have used the 'remove graininess' feature to smooth up the old FS pic, but I did nothing to the features themselves. The only thing I feel this proves us that it makes the chin shape clearer, and it it is an even better match for AA's.



I will continue my report later, I have to go for now.


i also must state that the Anna Virboya statement is clearly unfounded. Tatiana Botkin explained that.

And I don't think it is fair to include formal photos of Grand Duchess Anastasia as formal photos are touched up intentionally. It is also important to remember that there are no untouched photos of Franziska.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by calebGmoney »

calebGmoney

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Re: Without DNA
« Reply #11 on: January 07, 2006, 11:48:37 PM »
Annie, I don't know how you don't see similarity here at all.

There's also a noteable similarity here as well
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by calebGmoney »

calebGmoney

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Re: Without DNA
« Reply #12 on: January 07, 2006, 11:53:01 PM »
Here are Anna's mug shots in their full form because the other one is kind of squished.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by calebGmoney »

marina

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Re: Without DNA
« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2006, 07:51:13 AM »
Quote
Here are Anna's mug shots in their full form because the other one is kind of squished.



This photo has been taken in 1920, I think. But so 3 years after the last photo of Anastasia : she really changed quikcly but why not after what you suppose she lived ??? However, I find that getting old, AA  looked liked more Anastasia than when she was young.
 There is any truth in this story.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by marina »

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Without DNA
« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2006, 11:14:28 AM »
Annie started a thread which omited the DNA and of course,  the subject became heated and was locked down.  I suggest those who are interested read the thread:

http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=anastasia;action=display;num=1101302518;start=0#0

Quote

...[in part]....
Reasons:


...2. Her story of escape by cart, travelling a distance of almost 3000 miles on muddy back roads with no food or medical care for someone so horribly injured just isn't realistic. I think when she  made up the story, she didn't realize just how far it was from Ekaterinburg to Bucharest. The trip would have taken over a year to make, including brutal Russian winters. It's absolutely ridiculous.
...



There is another thread about Anna Anderson's Story where the cart trip from Ekaterinburg to Budapest was mentioned.   Annie  claimed such a trip was impossible.  

http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=anastasia;action=display;num=1108091391;start=0#0

Of course,  I beg to differ since I had many relatives who managed this kind of trip in and around 1918.  Yes,  I know, Louis Charles,  just because I know someone who made this trip, doesn't mean GD Anastasia did.  I agree.  However,  I have all kinds of letters, diaries of people who did accomplish this in and around 1918 by cart [with or without a horse], dog sled, walked, rode in a carriage....  to Budapest then went on the Germany then migr. to the USA and lived around me where I lived as a child.

Since we don't know what kind of injuries, if any, the GD Anastasia indured,  we can't know if she would have survived a trip from Ekaterinburg to Budapest.  However, you could realize the possibility that GD Anastasia could have survived, if you have ever read any stories about WWI and the kind of wounds suffered and how these men survived without medical treatment from doctors but from having common everyday people who cared and kept them alive under this most server conditions.   These people who never saw a doctor had their own way of fixing injuries.  Of course, some remedies worked and some ended up killing the wounded person.

There is a book EYEWITNESS IN TOBOLSK by Olga Belisle which tells the story of Hulda, nee Huebner, Schmidt and her family's journey to and from Siberia.  Unforuntately, the author set in some facts which we cannot separate from Hulda's actual story which causes some poster to reject the book.  However, her part of the story is true.  She did enter the house Ipatiev House and recieve a gift.  It was Yurovsky who helped them leave Ekaterinburg.

Hulda died before my adventure to discover her ever occured.

At this time,  her descendents live in Canada.

History is a collection of small unimportant to large important stories whch create the larger picture.

Quote

...[in part]...
Here is a photographs of people traveling during the WWI in Russia:




....As you can see by the photo there was no need for GD Anastasia to be hidden once the Tschaikovskys mingled with the masses.  Papers could be found on those who  died along the way or were stolen.  If that didn't work, money touched hands.

I believe she menioned a cart to Bucherest, Rumania but I don't recall her mentioning any sort of method of travel to Berlin.  I suspsect it was by train.

AGRBear


I did mention the Tschaikovsky's in my post and that was referring to AA's story.

If GD Anastasia was rescued,  you don't know who her rescuer/rescuers were but the same thing would have been true.  It was possible to travel this distance,  by cart, at that time of the year from Siberia to Budapest in 1918 to 1919.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

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