Author Topic: Without DNA  (Read 22498 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Annie

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 4756
    • View Profile
    • Anna Anderson Exposed!
Re: Without DNA
« Reply #90 on: January 12, 2006, 03:01:05 PM »
Quote

I joined this forum to read and hopefully to engage in historical debate. It is surely unnecessary to describe as "dear demented" those of us who have considered the question of Anna Anderson's identity and decided that she WAS Anastasia. Everyone is entitled to his/her own opinion- or perhaps I am just old fashioned?
Niobe
(a disappointed "Newbie")


I don't know how I can say this again. It's NOT an "OPINION" anymore once it's been proven wrong. Science has proven that AA was not AN and was 99.9% likely to be FS. AA=AN is no more a viable position than saying it's your 'opinion' that the south won the US Civil war. Your favorite color or favorite movie is your opinion, not facts that now have a real answer.

Offline niobe

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 14
    • View Profile
Re: Without DNA
« Reply #91 on: January 12, 2006, 03:45:47 PM »
Quote

I don't know how I can say this again. It's NOT an "OPINION" anymore once it's been proven wrong. Science has proven that AA was not AN and was 99.9% likely to be FS. AA=AN is no more a viable position than saying it's your 'opinion' that the south won the US Civil war. Your favorite color or favorite movie is your opinion, not facts that now have a real answer.


Hi Annie, and yes, I do appreciate your point of view.  
Perhaps I should add I had approached this forum because it sounded so interesting with its opening question "If DNA didn't exist, did you believe Anna Anderson?" but was disappointed to read of the "dear demented"- not a particularly pleasant tag!
Regards, Niobe

Offline Forum Admin

  • Administrator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 4665
  • www.alexanderpalace.org
    • View Profile
    • Alexander Palace Time Machine
Re: Without DNA
« Reply #92 on: January 12, 2006, 03:54:42 PM »
Quote
Bear,
Ernst Ludwig was a regular visitor to the Alexander Palace and his face had been plastered all over the newspapers and magazines for years. EVERYONE in the Alexander Palace would have know exactly who he was, making it virtually IMPOSSIBLE for him to have entered under an assumed name. For pity's sake, his personal security service went with him to Darmstadt and were all well acquainted with him, not to mention many of the servants etc etc.
GET A GRIP AND GET  DOSE OF REALITY, you are asking us to prove something "didn't happen"...when the BURDEN is for YOU to show ANYTHING other than the 60 year old statement of one OLD MAN...decades after the fact...
Lord, my Uncle Charles keeps popping into my head for some reason...


Just found this quote from Vyrubova's "Memories" on the main website, thought it might apply to the earlier discussion re: the impossibility for Ernst Ludwig to have "shown up" secretly:

It was impossible for anyone to approach the palace, much less to be received by one of their Majesties, without the fact being known to scores of these police guards. Every soldier, every guard, in uniform or out, kept a notebook in which he was obliged to write down for inspection by his superiors the movements of all persons who entered the palace and even those who passed its walls. Moreover, they were obliged to communicate by telephone with their superior officers every event, however trivial, of which they were witness. This vigilance was extended even to the persons of the Emperor and his family. If the Empress ordered her carriage for two o'clock in the afternoon, the lackey receiving the order immediately informed the nearest police guard of the fact. The guard telephoned the news to the palace commandant's office and from there the information went by telephone to the offices of the separate police organizations: "Her Majesty's carriage has been ordered for two o'clock."

Offline Annie

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 4756
    • View Profile
    • Anna Anderson Exposed!
Re: Without DNA
« Reply #93 on: January 13, 2006, 07:14:07 AM »
Quote
This is very biased and stupid. Greg King has provided info as to WHY people should keep an open mind about Anna Anderson's identity but of course it is deleted from this forum as people clearly do not wish for Anastasia to have survived. I cannot concieve of any other explanation after they continually say that DNA is the final word despite the changes in science and DNA typing and refuse to except that in another decade, none of the DNA tests could be considered valid.


I would very much have wished for AN to have survived, and I'm sure everyone else here would have too. But even if she were a member of my own family, I could not continue to believe that she might still be AA when we have proof she wasn't. As was stated when the 'new' (4 year old info)was deleted, it really changes nothing about the tests or the results. It's sad, but we have to let go.

Offline etonexile

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1231
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
    • View Profile
Re: Without DNA
« Reply #94 on: January 13, 2006, 08:07:41 AM »
Some folk will NEVER let go.... ::)

Offline AGRBear

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 6611
  • The road to truth is the best one to travel.
    • View Profile
    • Romanov's  Russia
Re: Without DNA
« Reply #95 on: January 13, 2006, 10:47:54 AM »
Quote

Just found this quote from Vyrubova's "Memories" on the main website, thought it might apply to the earlier discussion re: the impossibility for Ernst Ludwig to have "shown up" secretly:

It was impossible for anyone to approach the palace, much less to be received by one of their Majesties, without the fact being known to scores of these police guards. Every soldier, every guard, in uniform or out, kept a notebook in which he was obliged to write down for inspection by his superiors the movements of all persons who entered the palace and even those who passed its walls. Moreover, they were obliged to communicate by telephone with their superior officers every event, however trivial, of which they were witness. This vigilance was extended even to the persons of the Emperor and his family. If the Empress ordered her carriage for two o'clock in the afternoon, the lackey receiving the order immediately informed the nearest police guard of the fact. The guard telephoned the news to the palace commandant's office and from there the information went by telephone to the offices of the separate police organizations: "Her Majesty's carriage has been ordered for two o'clock."


I have not disagree with any of your information about the tight security of the Palace.  All of this is true.

I, also, know that when something was to be a secret it was kept secret through promises of loyality, and,  if this was broken there was no second chance.  The person was gone and his/her family was thereafter subjected to "silence".  I believe it was said "it was as if they were dead to us".  This not only touched the guilty person,  it touched his family....

How do I know?  Curios One's  great grandmother's brothers were part of the guard unit at this same palace.  She is my informant on these details.

These brothers, who  never strayed from their loyality to the Tsar and his family,  paid with their lives to protect Alexandra and her children.  

AGRBear  


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline ordino

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 76
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
    • View Profile
Re: Without DNA
« Reply #96 on: April 20, 2006, 09:08:11 AM »
I agree with CalebGmoney the ADN is not the last word, because the science is advance all days, so letīs go to open our mind a bit.
Thanks. Ordino

Offline CorisCapnSkip

  • Graf
  • ***
  • Posts: 283
  • I Love YaBB 2!
    • View Profile
Re: Without DNA
« Reply #97 on: April 27, 2006, 12:58:21 AM »
Can't help wondering, did Gleb Botkin and others who supported AA as AN have any way of knowing two bodies were missing from the mass grave, one almost certainly AN's, when the burial site was not unearthed for decades?  An ignorant Polish factory worker would have to be quite a scholar to learn all those languages, not to mention getting the right sort of bayonet and letting someone stab her with it  :P but someone concocting a really good story might be supposed to go through a lot.

Not saying I believe AA IS AN, just saying I'll believe it's NOT her when AN's body is unearthed!

Offline Ra-Ra-Rasputin

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 814
  • Another Anastasia claimant; the ears match exactly
    • View Profile
Re: Without DNA
« Reply #98 on: April 27, 2006, 03:05:16 AM »
No-one knew any bodies were missing.

If you refer to the 'claimants' thread, you'll see that there were several hundred claimants to the identity of the Romanov children over the years.  Anna Anderson just happened to choose Anastasia and become the most famous; it's not really a coincidence that Anastasia's body happens to be missing.  We don't grant all the claimants to Alexei's identity any more credence because HIS body is missing, so why would we do so to anyone else?

Besides, there is no guarantee that it is Anastasia's body that is missing.  I don't know enough about the bones recovered to make a judgement on who I think is missing, but just for your information, Maria is officially listed as the 'missing' Grand Duchess, as the disputed set of bones were buried as Anastasia in the St Peter and Paul Fortress when the Romanovs were brought home.

So, really, Anna Anderson's claims aren't made any more viable by the fact there is a female body missing, because theoretically, the body could be any four of the girls- we don't have the DNA to test each body individually to come to a definite conclusion on the identities.  We just have what amounts to educated guess work.

And, in answer to your other questions, Franziska Shankowska was not an ignorant peasant girl.  She came from a fairly wealthy family and was well educated. The ignorant peasant girl line is a myth.  

I'm not going to go into all of the reasons why what you say is wrong here, because I can't be bothered to repeat what has already been said thousands of times.  Just check out the Anna Anderson threads and you can see for yourself how all of AA's claims can be disproven.  She was FS, not AN, and the sooner people deal with that, the better.  There is no conspiracy, OK? There is no Romanov fortune, so why would anyone CARE enough to forge the results?! PLEASE!

Rachel
xx
'History teaches that history teaches us nothing' ~ Hegel

Offline CorisCapnSkip

  • Graf
  • ***
  • Posts: 283
  • I Love YaBB 2!
    • View Profile
Re: Without DNA
« Reply #99 on: April 28, 2006, 03:08:42 AM »
Of course there's no Romanov fortune NOW (the story was Britain blew it all on the war)  :-/ but are you suggesting there never was a fortune placed in a British Bank by Tzar Nicholas as a trust for his daughters?   :-?

Offline Ra-Ra-Rasputin

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 814
  • Another Anastasia claimant; the ears match exactly
    • View Profile
Re: Without DNA
« Reply #100 on: April 28, 2006, 03:35:14 AM »
Quote
Of course there's no Romanov fortune NOW (the story was Britain blew it all on the war)  :-/ but are you suggesting there never was a fortune placed in a British Bank by Tzar Nicholas as a trust for his daughters?   :-?

Nicholas asked all of the Romanovs to surrender their personal assets to the war effort, and most of them did.  A little research would have told you that.

By the time the war was over, there was hardly any Romanov money left.  If Nicholas had have placed money in foreign bank accounts for the children, it was taken out long before their deaths.  

The British DID NOT 'blow' all of the Romanov 'fortune' on the war; Nicholas spent the money on Russia's war effort.  I don't know where you got that 'story' from.

There WAS no hidden Romanov fortune.  Why else do you think Xenia, Olga and the Dowager Empress lived by the charity of others until their deaths? Why else do you think Olga, the last surviving Grand Duchess and daughter of an Emperor, died in poverty above a Canadian barber shop?? If there was money, don't you think they would have used it?? Get real, please!

Rachel
xx

'History teaches that history teaches us nothing' ~ Hegel

Offline CorisCapnSkip

  • Graf
  • ***
  • Posts: 283
  • I Love YaBB 2!
    • View Profile
Re: Without DNA
« Reply #101 on: April 28, 2006, 04:22:47 AM »
The story put forth in the movie based on Peter Kurth's book was that Tzar Nicholas banked vast sums in Britain in trust for his four daughters.  Had only one daughter survived, she would have inherited the money meant for her and her three sisters, no doubt with interest, etc.

On learning there was a claimant to possibly being one of these daughters with the least amount of credibility, highly-placed British panicked as they didn't have any such money--what wasn't spent in WWI was certainly gone by WWII.  So Lord Louis Mountbatten went all out to discredit Anna Anderson as Anastasia.

You are right, though, that if none of the girls survived, their money still should have gone to the next of kin, and the aunt or whoever was the closest relative should qualify as next of kin and should have received the money if it existed.

(On the upside, I don't believe the House of Windsor or anyone acting in its interests blew up Princess Diana's car or hired anyone to ram it-- 8-)--happy?   :D)

Offline Ra-Ra-Rasputin

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 814
  • Another Anastasia claimant; the ears match exactly
    • View Profile
Re: Without DNA
« Reply #102 on: April 28, 2006, 04:36:26 AM »
Yeah well, whatever Peter Kurth says, there was no Romanov money left after the war.  There was nothing for the British to take and spend.

And, if these accounts were so well coded, how would the British know where to go to get the money in the first place?

I'm glad you're not a Diana conspiracy theorist! People can't even have car accidents these days without people poking around for a sinister underhand motive..

Rachel
xx
'History teaches that history teaches us nothing' ~ Hegel

Offline Phil_tomaselli

  • Graf
  • ***
  • Posts: 314
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
    • View Profile
Re: Without DNA
« Reply #103 on: April 28, 2006, 08:39:21 AM »
I have to agree with Rachel on this one.  The Foreign Office files here are full of claims against the Russian (Bolshevik) Government by companies and individuals for losses caused by the Revolution and nationalization of factories and other property.  Some of the cases went on for 20 years.

If there was any money traceable these people would have found it I'm sure and tried to get their hands on it.  there is no evidence they did.  The British Government, of course, was owed millions by Russia for war expenses so might have felt entitled to first cal on any Romanov funds, but there is no evidence they found any either.

Phil Tomaselli

Offline Lemur

  • Graf
  • ***
  • Posts: 268
  • reach for the top!
    • View Profile
Re: Without DNA
« Reply #104 on: April 28, 2006, 08:56:09 AM »
When the war broke out, the Tsar repatriated all his money to help the economy in the war effort and asked all others to do so as well. This left many emigres with little or no cash funds after the revolution. There was a small amount of money (by royal standards) in England and Xenia got it, but Frogmore cottage was hardly a palace. It was no princely fortune.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Lemur »