Author Topic: Marie Antoinette and Axel Fersen  (Read 53078 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Sissi

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 504
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
    • View Profile
Re: Marie Antoinette and Axel Fersen
« Reply #60 on: January 17, 2006, 03:22:02 PM »
I think I not, there is a replica of her cell with wax officers, is that the one?

Offline coquelicot

  • Graf
  • ***
  • Posts: 269
    • View Profile
Re: Marie Antoinette and Axel Fersen
« Reply #61 on: January 17, 2006, 03:24:43 PM »
Hi, everybody ! I'm not sure it's the right place to introduce myself, so, I'll do it quickly ! I'm a belgian girl, my mothertong is french, and I'm intersted in Marie-Antoinette's life since a long time.

I've read so fascinating information on this site that I'd like to answer.

The most important, I think, is the relationship between the queen and Axel de Fersen. I agree with most of the posts saying that they most of all were friends.

Following the remarkable biography by Simone Bertière, Marie-Antoinette would never made her marriage contract in danger by making such a mistake as having a lover !

Of course, Antonia Fraser reminds us of the fact that contraception means were well known during the XVIIIth century, and that Fersen certainly has a good knowledge of all those.

But, in my view, having been raised in Marie-Thérèse's principles, Marie-Antoinette must have been very cautious in these matters. She wouldn't put in her children's veins anything but Burbon blood !

Marie-Liesl was so kind as to quote and translate a message sent to Fersen after Varennes' tragedy. This message is highly controversed. It isn't handwritten by Marie-Antoinette, the only copy we have is a translation of the original, that was coded.

Some historians have doubts about this note (Chalon, Delorme). They think it's not written by Marie-Antoinette, but by someone else using the code.

Evelyne Lever, who recently edited most of the letters of the queen, consider it a message truely sent by the queen... but admit that, about their relationship, we'll probably never know...

Anyway, as elena-maria-vidal points out, this tender language doesn't mean that much. It was the fashion of the time, and Marie-Antoinette "kisses" all her friends she loved "with all her heart" or "all her soul", to the "most tender of friends" (as, for instance, to Madame de Polignac, her best friend).

Some letters, very sweet, discovered among Fersen's papers, are also translated by him from a coded version. Mercy-Argenteau had copies too... that are less soft !

It seems that Fersen didn't disagree to be consider the lover of the queen of France, and that he cultivated this reputation.

I'd also like to remind that, this famous last night at the Tuileries, the "stayed here" night, he left poor Marie-Antoinette with her tears and her misfortunes, for running into his sensual mistress Eleonora's arms.

He may look like a hero, I have no admiration for him. Being too aristocratic, he gave Marie-Antoinette very bad advices, that no doubt led her easier to the guillotine. She, unfortunately, blindly relied on him.
qu'ils sachent du moins, que jusqu'à mon dernier moment j'ai pensé à eux.

Offline elena_maria_vidal

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 671
  • Fortis et fides
    • View Profile
    • Elena Maria Vidal
Re: Marie Antoinette and Axel Fersen
« Reply #62 on: January 17, 2006, 03:30:23 PM »
Quote
I think I not, there is a replica of her cell with wax officers, is that the one?


Yes, that is the one!

Offline Sissi

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 504
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
    • View Profile
Re: Marie Antoinette and Axel Fersen
« Reply #63 on: January 17, 2006, 03:34:08 PM »





Do you mean this?

Offline elena_maria_vidal

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 671
  • Fortis et fides
    • View Profile
    • Elena Maria Vidal
Re: Marie Antoinette and Axel Fersen
« Reply #64 on: January 17, 2006, 03:47:49 PM »
Quote
Hi, everybody ! I'm not sure it's the right place to introduce myself, so, I'll do it quickly ! I'm a belgian girl, my mothertong is french, and I'm intersted in Marie-Antoinette's life since a long time.

I've read so fascinating information on this site that I'd like to answer.

The most important, I think, is the relationship between the queen and Axel de Fersen. I agree with most of the posts saying that they most of all were friends.

Following the remarkable biography by Simone Bertière, Marie-Antoinette would never made her marriage contract in danger by making such a mistake as having a lover !

Of course, Antonia Fraser reminds us of the fact that contraception means were well known during the XVIIIth century, and that Fersen certainly has a good knowledge of all those.

But, in my view, having been raised in Marie-Thérèse's principles, Marie-Antoinette must have been very cautious in these matters. She wouldn't put in her children's veins anything but Burbon blood !

Marie-Liesl was so kind as to quote and translate a message sent to Fersen after Varennes' tragedy. This message is highly controversed. It isn't handwritten by Marie-Antoinette, the only copy we have is a translation of the original, that was coded.

Some historians have doubts about this note (Chalon, Delorme). They think it's not written by Marie-Antoinette, but by someone else using the code.

Evelyne Lever, who recently edited most of the letters of the queen, consider it a message truely sent by the queen... but admit that, about their relationship, we'll probably never know...

Anyway, as elena-maria-vidal points out, this tender language doesn't mean that much. It was the fashion of the time, and Marie-Antoinette "kisses" all her friends she loved "with all her heart" or "all her soul", to the "most tender of friends" (as, for instance, to Madame de Polignac, her best friend).

Some letters, very sweet, discovered among Fersen's papers, are also translated by him from a coded version. Mercy-Argenteau had copies too... that are less soft !

It seems that Fersen didn't disagree to be consider the lover of the queen of France, and that he cultivated this reputation.

I'd also like to remind that, this famous last night at the Tuileries, the "stayed here" night, he left poor Marie-Antoinette with her tears and her misfortunes, for running into his sensual mistress Eleonora's arms.

He may look like a hero, I have no admiration for him. Being too aristocratic, he gave Marie-Antoinette very bad advices, that no doubt led her easier to the guillotine. She, unfortunately, blindly relied on him.


Welcome, coquelicot!! Thank you for all of the information, very helpful and interesting!

There is one thing you said that I must offer a different opinion. I read what Antonia Fraser wrote about contraception and I must say I found it so ridiculous I could not stand to read the rest of her book. I have no doubt that Fersen knew about contraception as did the Duc d'Orleans and other bon-vivants. For Marie-Antoinette, from a prolific family where everyone had at least 10 children, to have consented to the use of such things while carrying on an adulterous affair is beyond belief to me. It was an age of loose-living and free-thinking but Marie-Antoinette abhorred such immorality, as she would certainly have been taught to view it. Even if she had slept with Axel, she would never have used birth control. Birth control, in those days, for those who actively adhered to the Catholic religion (like Marie-Antoinette) was practically in the category of the unnatural vices. It was seen as something that very dissolute people engaged in with prostitutes.  The Pope a century later would not even write about contraception because he said it was so unheard of, that it was not even an issue with ordinary practicing Catholics. For Lady Fraser (for whom I have the greatest respect as a biographer) to insert that into her biography of the queen was to impose modern morals and outlook on a woman to whom "our"  views of procreation and the thwarting of of procreation would be completely alien.

Offline coquelicot

  • Graf
  • ***
  • Posts: 269
    • View Profile
Re: Marie Antoinette and Axel Fersen
« Reply #65 on: January 17, 2006, 03:48:41 PM »
Hello, Sissi !

Have you seen "l'Autrichienne", by Granier-Deferre ? This movie shows the horrible conditions the queen lived in at the Conciergerie.

She was "tutoyée", (use of disrespectful "tu" form instead of "vous"), called "widow Capet" or "Antoinette" by her gards, who shared her cell, playing cards, smoking, kidding and watching her undress.

But, in a way, her fate was sweet, compared to her little Charles' one ! This poor boy died in the temple tower, treated like a dog !
qu'ils sachent du moins, que jusqu'à mon dernier moment j'ai pensé à eux.

Offline elena_maria_vidal

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 671
  • Fortis et fides
    • View Profile
    • Elena Maria Vidal
Re: Marie Antoinette and Axel Fersen
« Reply #66 on: January 17, 2006, 03:49:07 PM »
Quote





Do you mean this?


Yes, yes!! Thank you so much!! That is how it was when she received her last absolution and viaticum.

Offline elena_maria_vidal

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 671
  • Fortis et fides
    • View Profile
    • Elena Maria Vidal
Re: Marie Antoinette and Axel Fersen
« Reply #67 on: January 17, 2006, 03:51:10 PM »
Quote
Hello, Sissi !

Have you seen "l'Autrichienne", by Granier-Deferre ? This movie shows the horrible conditions the queen lived in at the Conciergerie.

She was "tutoyée", (use of disrespectful "tu" form instead of "vous"), called "widow Capet" or "Antoinette" by her gards, who shared her cell, playing cards, smoking, kidding and watching her undress.

But, in a way, her fate was sweet, compared to her little Charles' one ! This poor boy died in the temple tower, treated like a dog !


I would love to see that film. What do you think of the upcoming film with Kirsten Dunst?

Offline coquelicot

  • Graf
  • ***
  • Posts: 269
    • View Profile
Re: Marie Antoinette and Axel Fersen
« Reply #68 on: January 17, 2006, 04:28:47 PM »
Thank you for you nice greetings, elena-maria-vidal!

You said : "Even if she had slept with Axel, she would never have used birth control"... so, since she didn't want children but her husband's, she definitely didn't sleep with Fersen ! Did she ? ;)

For Coppola's future movie, I must admit I'm rather sceptical... like every Marie-Antoinette's admirer, I think !
Kirsten Dunst doesn't look like the queen at all, the rest of the casting is amazing (Asia Argento as the Barry, come on !). Some surfers specialized in costums and accessories wrote those are awful on the photos already available...

I didn't like the teaser neither. I hate seeing someone playing Marie-Antoinette nacked behind her fan. I'm afraid we'll meet the "austrian whore" portrayed by the pamphlets again rather than the real woman... I'm afraid this new movie, reaching a huge audience, would damage Marie-Antoinette's reputation, once again !

But... I must admit I've surfed on cinema sites, and met young people who calmed my fears down a bit... They know Sofia Coppola's works a lot, and told me her interpretation will surely be sensitive and intelligent.
Let's hope they're right !  :-/
qu'ils sachent du moins, que jusqu'à mon dernier moment j'ai pensé à eux.

Offline elena_maria_vidal

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 671
  • Fortis et fides
    • View Profile
    • Elena Maria Vidal
Re: Marie Antoinette and Axel Fersen
« Reply #69 on: January 17, 2006, 04:35:49 PM »
Quote
Thank you for you nice greetings, elena-maria-vidal!

You said : "Even if she had slept with Axel, she would never have used birth control"... so, since she didn't want children but her husband's, she definitely didn't sleep with Fersen ! Did she ? ;)

For Coppola's future movie, I must admit I'm rather sceptical... like every Marie-Antoinette's admirer, I think !
Kirsten Dunst doesn't look like the queen at all, the rest of the casting is amazing (Asia Argento as the Barry, come on !). Some surfers specialized in costums and accessories wrote those are awful on the photos already available...

I didn't like the teaser neither. I hate seeing someone playing Marie-Antoinette nacked behind her fan. I'm afraid we'll meet the "austrian whore" portrayed by the pamphlets again rather than the real woman... I'm afraid this new movie, reaching a huge audience, would damage Marie-Antoinette's reputation, once again !

But... I must admit I've surfed on cinema sites, and met young people who calmed my fears down a bit... They know Sofia Coppola's works a lot, and told me her interpretation will surely be sensitive and intelligent.
Let's hope they're right !  :-/


My personal opinion, based on a great deal, although not exhaustive, amount of research, is that she did not sleep with Axel. She may have been tempted, if she did love him. But to tell you the honest truth I doubt that she had that many oppotunities to be alone with him.

Oh, I feel the same way as you about the new movie!! When I saw them showing her naked with the fan, well, that is ridiculous, because everyone said she was modest to the point of prudery. But other things about the movie seem to be authentic. we shall see. It is a good thing we have this site to share our thoughts!! Have you seen the www.ladyreading.com site? It is excellent!!

Offline Sissi

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 504
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
    • View Profile
Re: Marie Antoinette and Axel Fersen
« Reply #70 on: January 17, 2006, 04:58:28 PM »
Naked behind a fan!!!!!!! that is ridiculous!!!! Ridiculous as having Kirsten Dunst as Marie Antoinette!!!!!!!!!!!

  RIDICULE!!!!!!! RIDICULE!!!!!!

Offline coquelicot

  • Graf
  • ***
  • Posts: 269
    • View Profile
Re: Marie Antoinette and Axel Fersen
« Reply #71 on: January 17, 2006, 05:07:22 PM »
Oh, yes ! I really adore this site ! It's full of wonderfull pictures, very rare, even. One of them deeply moved me, it's a little photo representing a tapestry the queen made. It's a little angel... have you seen it ? I'd like to put it here, but I'm not gifted for informatics, and I can't...  :-[

On Claudia's site, too, I heard for the first time Marie-Antoinette's beautiful songs. "C'est mon ami" (It's my friend - music Marie-Antoinette - Lyrics Florian) and "Portrait charmant" (charming portrait - lyrics and music Marie-Antoinette).

I agree with you, by the way, fully : for a lot of reasons, I think Marie-Antoinette and Fersen never slept together. And I even don't know if they were more than closed friends, if she loved him more than her other dear friends... Just, at the end, she relied on him, because she only had him left !

Like you, I have no exhaustive knowledge (who's the lucky one who has ?!), but I'm searching, all the time, because it's my greatest passion. I've really learned a lot of information here, and I thank you for sharing your knowledge.
qu'ils sachent du moins, que jusqu'à mon dernier moment j'ai pensé à eux.

Offline elena_maria_vidal

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 671
  • Fortis et fides
    • View Profile
    • Elena Maria Vidal
Re: Marie Antoinette and Axel Fersen
« Reply #72 on: January 17, 2006, 05:55:46 PM »
Quote
Naked behind a fan!!!!!!! that is ridiculous!!!! Ridiculous as having Kirsten Dunst as Marie Antoinette!!!!!!!!!!!

   RIDICULE!!!!!!! RIDICULE!!!!!!


I AGREE!!

Offline elena_maria_vidal

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 671
  • Fortis et fides
    • View Profile
    • Elena Maria Vidal
Re: Marie Antoinette and Axel Fersen
« Reply #73 on: January 17, 2006, 05:58:02 PM »
Quote
Oh, yes ! I really adore this site ! It's full of wonderfull pictures, very rare, even. One of them deeply moved me, it's a little photo representing a tapestry the queen made. It's a little angel... have you seen it ? I'd like to put it here, but I'm not gifted for informatics, and I can't...  :-[

On Claudia's site, too, I heard for the first time Marie-Antoinette's beautiful songs. "C'est mon ami" (It's my friend - music Marie-Antoinette - Lyrics Florian) and "Portrait charmant" (charming portrait - lyrics and music Marie-Antoinette).

I agree with you, by the way, fully : for a lot of reasons, I think Marie-Antoinette and Fersen never slept together. And I even don't know if they were more than closed friends, if she loved him more than her other dear friends... Just, at the end, she relied on him, because she only had him left !

Like you, I have no exhaustive knowledge (who's the lucky one who has ?!), but I'm searching, all the time, because it's my greatest passion. I've really learned a lot of information here, and I thank you for sharing your knowledge.


Oh, I did not notice that her songs were on Claudia's site!  Thank you!! Marie-Antoinette really was an enchanting person, too good for this ugly world! And please check out my site, www.emvidal.com, still under construction!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by elena_maria_vidal »

Offline Sissi

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 504
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
    • View Profile
Re: Marie Antoinette and Axel Fersen
« Reply #74 on: January 18, 2006, 09:43:51 AM »
WOW!!!!!I didn´t know you were THAT Maria Elena Vidal! I have heard and read some very good critics about your books! I have already order  "Madame Royale".