Heinrich Kleibenzetl - His Testimony at Anna Anderson's Trial

I wouldn't be surprised if they used those tactics of saying the women got away to HIDE the fact that they did indeed murder the Empress and the girls.  It would have made the regime look even worse if news got out they had executed Alix and OTMA.

That's what I was thinking, too. When Ella and the Grand Dukes were killed at the mine pit 2 days later, the Bolsheviks contrived a story of telling everyone in the town they had been taken away by 'unknown persons' (source: testimony by assasin in "Lifelong Passion") They were very good at lying and denying and covering up. There were so many rumors in Russia, it was a long time before the truth was known. They DIDN'T want anyone to think they had killed the women, so they tried to throw off suspicion.

COULD she have survived, but not been AA? That is something I would like to see investigated. It will always be a hopeful possibility and interesting subject as long as her body remains missing (or there is doubt to the postive ID of the body called her or Marie)

The case of Kleibenzetl is an interesting one, but not necessarily evidence of anything.  On the surface, though, he's a much better "witness" than any of the assorted cast of characters in Perm who claimed to see various Romanov women, especially given his known whereabouts and the fact that-unlike all of the Perm "witnesses"-he had actually seen members of the family firsthand in the weeks before the murders (we have his complete statement here that gives some further details).

But one man's allegations does not a case make; coupled with other evidence and testimony about Anastasia's alleged escape from a multitude of uninvolved witnesses, a search by the Bolsheviks, and things like Princess Elena Petrovna being asked to determine if one girl was Anastasia, however, it contributes to a circumstantial case.  But that's all it is, with no firm evidence.

That said, though, it's important to note that had the Bolsheviks been using the episode as a public charade, they certainly weren't terribly successful in their efforts; nor does Kleibenzetl's story work under this scenario since the people from whom he rented rooms were not Bolsheviks at all-and thus their tale-and his-could not form part of a conspiracy.  The other fact that mitigates against this is that Kleibenzetl kept his silence until the 1950s when the Anastasia trials were underway-which surely would not have been the point had this been some sort of pre-arranged incident to drum up talk.

But with or without the case of Anastasia Manahan, there's clear evidence that Anastasia left the murder room alive that night and had to be beaten into silence by a drunken Ermakov.  Whether this killed her or she then went on to disappear/escape remains the unknown factor.

Greg King

I don't know about the others, but I never thought that Kleibenzetl's story was any kind of Bolshevik plot. No, I don't think the Bolsheviks would plant a story Anastasia had survived the massacre, that wouldn't make sense since they weren't supposed to have shot the whole family anyway   it was the 'missing' signs around Perm that I was talking about in response to Lanie's post, and I think that's what she was talking about too.

There are so many interesting stories and reports about Anastasia's possible 'escape,' and after all the body is missing! So no, I don't think this mystery is over! I would LOVE to see investigations into all the various possibilities surrounding this story OTHER than the AA thing.

Mr. King, do you happen to know what happened to Kleibenzetl?

I'd be extremely interested in more detail about his life, where he lived after he left Ekaterinburg, what company he kept, how long he lived after the 1960s trial, anything else he might have said about his experiences during the Russian Revolution. Did anyone else interview him or write about him? Peter Kurth apparently cited an interview in the magazine "Figaro" from the 1950s or 1960s.

If anyone has done more research into Franziska Schanzkowska's family, I'd be interested in hearing about that. If nothing else, there must be birth records in Pomerania that would indicate whether Franziska and her sister had different mothers and, if so, if the mothers were related maternally. That information would cast some new light on the DNA results between Anna Anderson and Franziska Schanzkowska's great nephew.

I don't think it's ever going to be possible to know for certain what happened. That's probably why we're all still so fascinated with the story. But I think there is still convincing evidence that would point towards Grand Duchess Anastasia's initial survival.

If anyone has done more research into Franziska Schanzkowska's family, I'd be interested in hearing about that. If nothing else, there must be birth records in Pomerania that would indicate whether Franziska and her sister had different mothers and, if so, if the mothers were related maternally. That information would cast some new light on the DNA results between Anna Anderson and Franziska Schanzkowska's great nephew.

I want to know how he claims to have this knowledge no one else seems to be able to find. Is it fact or speculation? Surely no scientists would have bothered with any DNA tests without first finding a person of the same maternal line. Besides this, the DNA did match, so obviously they were related through the maternal line.

a chart of the DNA clusters and how they matched:

http://www.dnai.org/bioserver/clustalw_anna_and_carl.html

He testified that he heard gunshots from the house, heard screams and one of the girls call "Mama!" and that he ran away. He spent about an hour and a half walking around the town. When he returned to the boarding house his landlady was boiling water and told him not to go to his room.

I don't know.  Have you ever heard a gun shot at close range?  One single shot is deafening (hence the need for ear plugs when one goes shooting).  Many shots, from many guns would drown out an screaming, in my opinion, as well as drown out any words that might have been spoken.  Yes, Yurovsky says the girls screamed, but he wouldn't have had to hear the screams to know that -- all he would need is to see their faces to know they were screaming.  As such, I'm not sure I can really put much faith in this tetimony, although I do find such stories very interesting.

Alexa

I don't know.  Have you ever heard a gun shot at close range?  One single shot is deafening (hence the need for ear plugs when one goes shooting).  Many shots, from many guns would drown out an screaming, in my opinion, as well as drown out any words that might have been spoken.  Yes, Yurovsky says the girls screamed, but he wouldn't have had to hear the screams to know that -- all he would need is to see their faces to know they were screaming.  As such, I'm not sure I can really put much faith in this tetimony, although I do find such stories very interesting.
 
Alexa

I think it would depend on how close he was to the house, wouldn't it? I would interpret "close range" as in the same room or within a few feet of it. But, regardless, he would have known if he heard gunshots and he certainly should have been able to recognize the wounded girl as Anastasia if he'd seen her when he went to deliver uniforms to the Ipatiev house.  

I want to know how he claims to have this knowledge no one else seems to be able to find. Is it fact or speculation? Surely no scientists would have bothered with any DNA tests without first finding a person of the same maternal line. Besides this, the DNA did match, so obviously they were related through the maternal line.

a chart of the DNA clusters and how they matched:

http://www.dnai.org/bioserver/clustalw_anna_and_carl.html

That's why I would like someone to produce a family tree of the Schanzkowski family that shows precisely how Franziska and her sister Gertrude were related to one another and how their mother(s) were related. I'm sure someone did the research on it. I'd also be interested in where the information about Franziska and her sister being half-sisters came from. Kurth said that Massie said that Franziska is the child of a second marriage and her sisters came from the first marriage. I don't have Massie's book in front of me, but it would be interesting to see the relevant chapter again.  

The argument that they were related in the maternal line because they matched doesn't necessarily hold water for me, with accusations of tampering coming from the other side. Let's see more proof that the great-nephew is related to Franziska in the maternal line.

Here is the relevant citation from Peter Kurth's Web site:

Massie, 249; Klier and Mingay, 224.  Klier and Mingay also report (223) that Franziska Schanzkowska and her brother Felix had a different mother than the other Schanzkowski siblings:  “Her father married twice, and she was a child of the second marriage and close to her brother Felix.  The first family were very religious and straitlaced, while Franziska and Felix were more open-minded.”  This story was repeated on a now-defunct website, an attack on Anna Anderson snidely titled Franziska:  “At some point in the distant past her family had been minor Polish nobility, but whatever glories and privileges that had entailed were long gone.  Her father was said to have been an alcoholic, and at any rate died when she was still young.  The child of a second marriage, Franziska and her full brother Felix were remembered as being free-spirited, less driven by religion than their half sisters.” Again, no source is given for this claim.  Neither Klier and Mingay nor Franziska’s anonymous author seem to notice that, if this is true, the mitochondrial DNA obtained from a descendant of Gertrude Schanzkowska would not and could not match Franziska’s, since this DNA is passed only through the female line and they did not have the same mother."

And here is the address to Peter Kurth's Website:

http://www.peterkurth.com/ANNA-ANASTASIA%20NOTES%20ON%20FRANZISKA%20SCHANZKOWSKA.htm

Please, I do not mean to discount or question a respected author but this theory seems a bit far fetched. I'm sure when the people who did the test went looking for a person of her same maternal line, I doubt they'd have been stupid or foolish enough not to ask or check that they were what they were looking for, and if they had not found a person of that line or one that was willing they could have kept looking. I don't think they just grabbed a person, they had to have done their homework, especially since Mr. Maucher did not even have the same last name.

But the bottom line is, HOW could it even be an issue that the person may not have been of the same maternal line when THE DNA MATCHED!! You see the link of how the clusters of Anna/Carl match up and the ones of Prince Phillip do not

There are two distinct issues here, which must remain separate.  With all due respect to Peter, who we respect highly, we disagree on this point.  The mtDNA tests are still quite valid today.  The only change in the manner of the test today is that a machine performs the analysis which was done by hand in the AA case.  That analysis showed two results, which have no bearing on each other.  The first result was that AA could in no way be maternally related to Alexandra Feodrovna, 100%.  The second result, which IS open to discussion was that AA MIGHT have been related to FS, with some degree of confidence, but it is not conclusive.
The key issue here is that one has nothing to do with the other. Whoever AA may really have been, she could NOT be related to Alexandra Feodrovna. You must not lose sight of this fact in the discussion.

There are two distinct issues here, which must remain separate.  With all due respect to Peter, who we respect highly, we disagree on this point.  The mtDNA tests are still quite valid today.  The only change in the manner of the test today is that a machine performs the analysis which was done by hand in the AA case.  That analysis showed two results, which have no bearing on each other.  The first result was that AA could in no way be maternally related to Alexandra Feodrovna, 100%.  The second result, which IS open to discussion was that AA MIGHT have been related to FS, with some degree of confidence, but it is not conclusive.
The key issue here is that one has nothing to do with the other. Whoever AA may really have been, she could NOT be related to Alexandra Feodrovna. You must not lose sight of this fact in the discussion.

As I said elsewhere, I'm not a scientist and can't speak to the accuracy of the various DNA testing that has been conducted. I think three different issues are being discussed in the post I started:

-- The most interesting to me is the testimony of Heinrich Kleinbenzetl about his sighting of a wounded Grand Duchess Anastasia in his landlady's house on the night of the murders. I would like to know more about Kleinbenzetl and what else he said. It would be interesting to look at the validity of other Anastasia claimants as well, including the one mentioned in another thread who lived in Soviet Russia under the name of Nadezhda and died in a mental hospital there in 1971.

-- The validity of the DNA testing conducted on the bones attributed to the family of the Tsar. I have a great deal of respect for Peter Kurth's research and for his opinions regarding Anna Anderson. Therefore, I cannot entirely rule out the possibility that Anna Anderson WAS Anastasia, regardless of the DNA testing that indicated the contrary. Neither can I say that she was Anastasia. The DNA evidence is convincing as well.  

-- The third factor is the validity of the DNA testing done on the piece of intestine and the piece of hair attributed to Anna Anderson and their match to Franziska Schanzkowska's great-nephew. If it can be proven that Franziska and Gertrude were full sisters, that would explain why Carl's mitochondrial DNA matched Anna AKA Franziska's. If Peter Kurth's assertion that they were half-sisters is correct, on the other hand, then there is a problem. That would suggest to me that there is a problem somewhere with the testing. It WOULD seem very strange for the scientists involved not to check and make sure that Franziska and the great-nephew were related in the maternal line, I admit, but it's still worth checking if only to satisfy Kurth and other skeptics.

I think it would depend on how close he was to the house, wouldn't it? I would interpret "close range" as in the same room or within a few feet of it. But, regardless, he would have known if he heard gunshots and he certainly should have been able to recognize the wounded girl as Anastasia if he'd seen her when he went to deliver uniforms to the Ipatiev house.  

I don't think it would really matter how close or far he would have been.  If the screams were muffled due to gun fire, then the screams were muffled.  Also keep in mind there was a truck running to help deaden the noise of the gun fire.  I think if he were anywhere near Ipatiev House, he would have heard gun fire and the truck, and little else.

Another thing to ask is exactly how close could he have gotton to Ipatieve House to begin with since there was a barricade going around it and its grounds.

It is possible he was there, and maybe just exagerated the truth a bit.  As for the rest of the story about AN being in his room, who knows?  As has been pointed out many times, either AN or MN's body is missing, so we just can't say for 100% what happened.

Alexa

Kleibenzetl said he saw her, again, in 1923.  Greg. is this mentioned in what additional information you have?

AGRBear

Edit #1 Or did K. tell a friend in 1923 he had seen Anatasia after 16 July 1918?

Kleibenzetl said he saw her, again, in 1923.  Greg. is this mentioned in what additional information you have?

AGRBear
 
Edit #1 Or did K. tell a friend in 1923 he had seen Anatasia after 16 July 1918?

According to Kurth's book, Kleibenzetl told a friend in 1923 that he saw Anastasia. He didn't speak of it again until he and his second wife read newspaper stories about the Anastasia trial, again according to Kurth's book.