Author Topic: Anna Anderson - Physical Evidence and DNA  (Read 105160 times)

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Offline Malenkaya

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Re: Anna Anderson - Physical Evidence and DNA
« Reply #255 on: February 28, 2005, 03:40:25 PM »
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Anyone have any info on FS?  The course, big boned, blackened tooth stumps info was from Doris Wingender, so am not sure how accurate it is.  It certainly does not match our only known photo of FS, does it?


I don't think the only known photo of FS can answer that one way or another.  We can't see her teeth - Wingender could have said she had movie star perfect teeth, but you couldn't prove it by the photo.  As far as being big boned, I can't tell from a headshot either.  My best friend growing up was a tall, big boned girl.  But her school pictures, which were basically from the shoulders up (like the picture of FS) would not provide you with that information.

That's the problem with having just this one photograph - although we can see her face, it doesn't tell us about her overall size, condition of her teeth, how tall she may have been, etc.  It's better than nothing, but still not overwhelmingly useful either way, IMO.
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Offline Penny_Wilson

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Re: Anna Anderson - Physical Evidence and DNA
« Reply #256 on: February 28, 2005, 04:40:57 PM »
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Please Annie AND Penny:  play nice.  I would like to keep this discussion civil and have a reasonable exchange of information with no name calling from anyone!  Thank you!!  :) :) :)



Denise, I am not playing here; I take my history seriously.  If you want to have a discussion of genuine evidence, then you must cut out the nonsense.  And please don't chastize me as though I were a child -- it's not your job.  I have not called Annie names -- you'll notice I have not responded to her baiting of me --  nor have I been unreasonable in my request that she update her list of "reasons" to conform to established facts.  

Of course, if you all would like me not to participate in this discussion, if you would prefer to give Annie free-rein to post untruths, then you just let me know and I will withdraw.  

But please know that I am back on the boards only because I was invited.
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Offline Denise

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Re: Anna Anderson - Physical Evidence and DNA
« Reply #257 on: February 28, 2005, 05:01:52 PM »
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Denise, I am not playing here; I take my history seriously.  If you want to have a discussion of genuine evidence, then you must cut out the nonsense.  And please don't chastize me as though I were a child -- it's not your job.  I have not called Annie names -- you'll notice I have not responded to her baiting of me --  nor have I been unreasonable in my request that she update her list of "reasons" to conform to established facts.  

Of course, if you all would like me not to participate in this discussion, if you would prefer to give Annie free-rein to post untruths, then you just let me know and I will withdraw.  

But please know that I am back on the boards only because I was invited.


No, Penny, it was not my intent to chase you away :)!!  I am very glad to have you in this thread.  I was just hoping that you and Annie both could ignore one another.  We had already addressed the fact that Annie's list was inappropriate to this discussion, and she agreed.  

As I stated earlier, folks like Annie who have their minds made up on the AA FS case should try to be less nay-saying here.  We are trying to look at ALL the evidence, and hopefully see things that were missed because of the focus on the DNA results.

Currently, we are trying to discern if there is an objective description of FS around.  Penny, have you seen anything so far in your research, or are we pretty much in the dark here?  :)  

In any case, if someone has found a reference for FS outside the three books I have please come forward!  

Offline Penny_Wilson

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Re: Anna Anderson - Physical Evidence and DNA
« Reply #258 on: February 28, 2005, 05:04:56 PM »
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When were the affidavits given by the nurses? Was it at the time of the trial or were they given earlier and closer to 1920?  


Both.  Evidence of this nature -- physical description, deportment, languages, etc -- was gathered in the first few weeks after Fraulein Unbekannt was pulled from the Landwehr.  When she wouldn't speak for herself, it was hoped that this information would help identify her.

Later on, during the trials, these nurses were brought into court to affirm their findings in 1920 and shortly thereafter.
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Offline Penny_Wilson

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Re: Anna Anderson - Physical Evidence and DNA
« Reply #259 on: February 28, 2005, 05:12:53 PM »
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But Annie and I have discussed the language issue exhaustively on another thread and we both concluded (as I recall) that FS, as a Kashubian, would have been multi-lingual - speaking Kashube, Polish, and probably German as well, since the part of Poland where she was born was made up of these ethnic groups and belonged to different empires in different periods.


I think it's probably a better idea to consider what Felix Schanzkowsky had to say about his family's linguistic history.  He testified that Franziska "spoke a little Polish and good German," in addition to the Katchoubian dialect spoken in the Schanzkowsky house.  A tiny piece of evidence backing up his assertion that the family spoke "good German" is that three of the four remaining Schanzkowsky children -- Felix himself, Gertrude, and Maria Juliana -- followed Franziska to Germany in their adulthood.  This seems to suggest that they leaned towards the German side of their Polish heritage.
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Offline Penny_Wilson

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Re: Anna Anderson - Physical Evidence and DNA
« Reply #260 on: February 28, 2005, 05:22:28 PM »
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Was Erna Bucholz a Russian native, or did she just live in Russia for a time? Her name doesn't sound Russian, it sounds German... But then again, there were many Germans living in Russia.


Erna was a Russian who had been a teacher of German when she lived there.  Once she moved to Germany after the revolution, I suppose there wasn't all that much call for German teachers, so she trained as a nurse.  She was the first nurse in charge of Fraulein Unbekannt's care.  This, verbatim, from her testimony:

"During the nightshift I had special opportunity to converse with her, as generally she could not sleep... I told her one evening that I came from Russia, talked about the Cathedral in Moscow [St. Basil's] and spoke about Russian matters in general... I asked her if she could speak Russian. She answered 'Yes,' whereupn we began to converse in Russian.  She did not speak it faultily.  Rather, she used whole, complete, connected sentences without any impediments..."

Perhaps we can infer from this statement that Erna Bucholz either came from, or lived in, Moscow.


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Another thing about the Russian issue is the fact that GD Olga Alexandrovna, in her biography, specifically stated that when she met AA, she did not seem to speak Russian at all, and insisted on speaking German the whole time (which Anastasia supposedly knew very little of). According to Olga, AA even asked someone in German, "is this the aunt?" when Olga first came in to see her in the room... Sounds kind of odd, unless Olga was confused or was lying.  


I could suggest only that Fraulein U would only speak Russian to those whom she thought she could trust.  Erna Bucholz earned her trust; Olga Alexandrovna had not.

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Offline Annie

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Re: Anna Anderson - Physical Evidence and DNA
« Reply #261 on: February 28, 2005, 05:29:54 PM »
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I could suggest only that Fraulein U would only speak Russian to those whom she thought she could trust.  Erna Bucholz earned her trust; Olga Alexandrovna had not.



Or perhaps Olga A. was the more accurate and honest of the two ;)

Offline Penny_Wilson

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Re: Anna Anderson - Physical Evidence and DNA
« Reply #262 on: February 28, 2005, 05:34:24 PM »
Further on the subject of the nurses...

There were three of them specifically: Erna Bucholz, Thea Malinowsky and Bertha Walz.  

According to Bucholz and Malinowsky, the nurses had suspected the Fraulein U was a Grand Duchess even before the first visitor came from the Russian emigre community.  This is supported by Nurse Malinowsky's fiance, a doctor called Chemnitz: Thea had gone home one day and told him what she suspected, and then what Fraulein A had confessed to her.  He asked her what she expected to hear from an inmate at an asylum.

The magazine that the nurses and Fraulein U looked at has been variously identified, but Nurse Malinowsky was certain that it was an old copy of the Berliner Illustrierte Zeitung from before the War.

If anything, it was Thea Malinowsky who was a bit of a fan of the Russian Imperial Family.  She seemed to know a bit about them, and was the one who drew out of Fraulein Unbekannt the confession that she was Anastasia.  I am not certain what Nurse Malinowsky's background was, but there is one other mention of the name Malinowsky in this whole saga:  Lieutenant Dimitri Malinowsky was the soldier hiding in the Koptyaki village in July 1918, and who emerged after the Whites took the city of Ekaterinburg to help with the investigation into the family's disappearance.
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Offline Penny_Wilson

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Re: Anna Anderson - Physical Evidence and DNA
« Reply #263 on: February 28, 2005, 05:46:26 PM »
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Currently, we are trying to discern if there is an objective description of FS around.  Penny, have you seen anything so far in your research, or are we pretty much in the dark here?  :)  



I have only seen the usual stuff.  I tend not to set too much store in the Wingender girls' description of FS.  I think they are a little too "penny-dreadful" to be taken seriously.

Ian Lilburn told me that during the trial, there was evidence entered concerning Franziska's dress and shoe sizes -- I forget from whom this came, though I have an idea it originated from the Wingenders who surrendered the clothing that FS left behind at their residence when she disappeared.  In both cases, the sizes were quite a bit bigger than the sizes Fraulein U wore --  a little enough matter in the case of dress sizes where weight can be gained or lost relatively easily, but shoe sizes are another thing.  One clue that I cannot shake is that Fraulein U wore shoes three sizes smaller than FS's shoes.  Feet can spread out in width with age and various ailments -- like the bunions -- but can they shrink three sizes in the space of a couple of weeks?

Ian also told me that there were several photographs of Franziska that he saw in the course of the trial.  The one that we all know is the one that Pierre Gilliard selected to illustrate his book, and it was the one -- in Ian's opinion -- that was the least clear in presenting its subject.  I don't know what happened to these other photographs of FS.  They might have simply belonged to Felix, with whom Ian spoke on several occasions.  If they were entered into evidence, they have never surfaced.

Ian was kind enough to let us take copies of some Schanzkowsky photos that he got at the trial -- they are the ones that the Nazis took of the family.  I will try and scan them for posting if anyone would like to see them -- but it will take me a couple of days.  I am very behind on tons of stuff!  ::)  
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Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: Anna Anderson - Physical Evidence and DNA
« Reply #264 on: February 28, 2005, 05:58:59 PM »
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 One clue that I cannot shake is that Fraulein U wore shoes three sizes smaller than FS's shoes.  Feet can spread out in width with age and various ailments -- like the bunions -- but can they shrink three sizes in the space of a couple of weeks?
 


This certainly would be one of the more convincing pieces of evidence, the only problem is that it is possible that FS may have worn someone else's hand-me-down shoes that were too big for her feet, so we can't be sure that this was her actual shoe size, we can only be sure that this was the size shoes she owned.

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Ian was kind enough to let us take copies of some Schanzkowsky photos that he got at the trial -- they are the ones that the Nazis took of the family.  I will try and scan them for posting if anyone would like to see them -- but it will take me a couple of days.  I am very behind on tons of stuff!  ::)  


Penny, do you mean more photos of FS, or just of her family? I'd like to see them, if you can scan and post them please. Thanks!


While I was surfing around today, I found something cute on the internet: it is a lesson plan evidently made by a teacher, to teach her class about the AA/AN/FS case and about bias in perception, on both sides!

They even listed all the pros and cons of AA, just like we did here  :).

Here it is: http://www.historyonthenet.com/Lessons/anastasia/anastasiamain.htm

Offline Penny_Wilson

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Re: Anna Anderson - Physical Evidence and DNA
« Reply #265 on: February 28, 2005, 06:18:16 PM »
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This certainly would be one of the more convincing pieces of evidence, the only problem is that it is possible that FS may have worn someone else's hand-me-down shoes that were too big for her feet, so we can't be sure that this was her actual shoe size, we can only be sure that this was the size shoes she owned.


I think a stumbling block here is the idea -- and this isn't your idea Helen, it just seems to be the general perception -- that the Schanzkowskys were "dirt poor."  They weren't.  They farmed a piece of land quite successfully when the parents were married and together -- and later on the former Mrs S seems to have been quite "middle class."  I wouldn't say that they were wealthy, but certainly they could afford a few "extras" for their children -- I remember that M-J had dancing lessons of some sort -- so I imagine that there were properly fitting shoes.

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Penny, do you mean more photos of FS, or just of her family? I'd like to see them, if you can scan and post them please. Thanks!


Just of the family, sorry!  There were a number of photos of all the Schanzkowskys that Ian saw, but he only got hold of the ones that the Nazis took.  Perhaps because these were not "family" photos, Felix let him have them.


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Offline Annie

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Re: Anna Anderson - Physical Evidence and DNA
« Reply #266 on: February 28, 2005, 08:03:28 PM »
Denise, thanks for being fair and commenting on both. I never 'baited' anyone, I simply responded in disgust to a rude remark.

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This certainly would be one of the more convincing pieces of evidence, the only problem is that it is possible that FS may have worn someone else's hand-me-down shoes that were too big for her feet, so we can't be sure that this was her actual shoe size,


Even if someone wasn't 'dirt poor' doesn't mean they wouldn't have had to use hand me down shoes. In the post war era things were bad in Europe (and in WWII there was rationing so maybe it was something like that). She also could have been destitute as a girl on her own even if the family wasn't and had to use someone else's hand me downs.


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we can only be sure that this was the size shoes she owned.


I'm not even totally convinced of that :-/ If the intestines can be switched so can the shoes ;)


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Re: Anna Anderson - Physical Evidence and DNA
« Reply #267 on: March 01, 2005, 05:05:11 AM »
 I think that a member of a royal family such as the romanov always has an accent even in its language known as native.Maybe I exaggerate but when a child learns Russian and at the same time 3 other languages, the reference marks must be vague.

Offline Annie

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Re: Anna Anderson - Physical Evidence and DNA
« Reply #268 on: March 01, 2005, 05:35:19 AM »
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Maybe I exaggerate but when a child learns Russian and at the same time 3 other languages, the reference marks must be vague.


Good point, using so many languages they wouldn't have the same pure Russian accent as other Russian kids. Olga A. said they learned English and Russian as babies. Then as youngsters they began the French and German lessons. With all the foreign influences in their lives, it's no telling what they really sounded like.

Offline sparrow

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Re: Anna Anderson - Physical Evidence and DNA
« Reply #269 on: March 01, 2005, 09:40:39 AM »
Hi, i just wanted to mention the Baby.  1919 AA had A baby and said so,  in 1919 FS did not.   It would have been brought up somewhere.  I find this a very important discrepancy.  it takes forty weeks to have a child and in that time the body grows.  A baby born to FS would have been recorded, somewhere.  AA admitted to having a child in 1919 is that not relevent here.  i think so.