Author Topic: Since she wasn't Anastasia.....  (Read 22891 times)

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Offline etonexile

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Re: Since she wasn't Anastasia.....
« Reply #120 on: March 19, 2006, 06:51:27 AM »
No,Tedders...we don't think that ChatNoir has painted self into a corner...no...never...

Offline Annie

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Re: Since she wasn't Anastasia.....
« Reply #121 on: March 19, 2006, 12:31:37 PM »
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Obviously there is still doubt about how the intestine sample was handled, which is not necessarily unreasonable.  Hospital police concerning handling of specimins has changed over the years.  If anyone was really determined to settle the issue of contamination, they would have to consider testing other samples.  Or there is no way to prove one way or another that the AA intestine sample was not contaminated, be it accidentally or intentionally.  I'm not saying it's rational or even constructive, but it could shut some people up.

Where can I find the information analyzing the chances of contamination?  Is there a thread on policy for the hospital housing the intestine sample?  


There may still be some 'intestine switch' threads on the back pages of this forum, but I don't know how much has been deleted since it is the policy of the site to delete any accusations of a 'switch' without proof. I'm sure this has been mentioned in most every single AA thread at one time or another, I have lost track of where they all are as EVERY thread seems to end up the same way.

As far as the hospital goes, this has been discussed literally to death. Those of us from Virginia find it insulting to Martha Jefferson Hospital and its staff that any such accusations are made, and honestly many of the claims made here seem libelous to the hospital. It has a very good rep with stuff like this, even UVA Med Center had a baby switch, but not MJ. Every time I  pass the exit that says "Martha Jefferson Hosptial this exit" I want to get off, go in there and tell one of the employess to please post here and put this question to rest once and for all!!

There is NO WAY a switch or any tampering could have happened. Samples are stored by corresponding number to a system in a computer, not a name. Nobody can sneak in there and find anything and start switching. And as I said many times before, what would it be switched with? You'd have to kidnap a member of the Schanskowska family, cut out exactly the piece of intestine AA had removed, and I don't think this is very realistic. Also, again, WHO would even want to do this? The Queen? She's been accused!  ::) Also remember the DNA tests were instigated by Schweitzer, who is the son in law of Gleb Botkin, and an AA supporter, so he's not going to switch! When you really look at it, the whole idea is just plain ridiculous.

Offline Annie

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Re: Since she wasn't Anastasia.....
« Reply #122 on: March 19, 2006, 12:34:35 PM »
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Well, now it's you that needs to do their homework Chat Noir. There is no "fact" of two sets of children "from different mothers." In fact, there's no evidence of children from the first marriage of FS's father at all.

No evidence, only the agenda of people that can't admit they were wrong, and are desperate to prove that AA was not FS.

Curioser and curioser...

  


Yes, that's right, the first wife had no children. Maybe she died in childbirth, or sickness took her before she had a child. The five surviving Schanskowska children all have the same parents. There have been wild stories of the parentage, but none of them are true.

Offline Tsarina_Liz

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Re: Since she wasn't Anastasia.....
« Reply #123 on: March 19, 2006, 12:43:42 PM »
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As far as the hospital goes, this has been discussed literally to death. Those of us from Virginia find it insulting to Martha Jefferson Hospital and its staff that any such accusations are made, and honestly many of the claims made here seem libelous to the hospital. It has a very good rep with stuff like this, even UVA Med Center had a baby switch, but not MJ. Every time I  pass the exit that says "Martha Jefferson Hosptial this exit" I want to get off, go in there and tell one of the employess to please post here and put this question to rest once and for all!!

There is NO WAY a switch or any tampering could have happened. Samples are stored by corresponding number to a system in a computer, not a name. Nobody can sneak in there and find anything and start switching. And as I said many times before, what would it be switched with? You'd have to kidnap a member of the Schanskowska family, cut out exactly the piece of intestine AA had removed, and I don't think this is very realistic. Also, again, WHO would even want to do this? The Queen? She's been accused!  ::) Also remember the DNA tests were instigated by Schweitzer, who is the son in law of Gleb Botkin, and an AA supporter, so he's not going to switch! When you really look at it, the whole idea is just plain ridiculous.


On this site, I have never seen anything discussing the hospital's policies and of course there is a chance the threads have been deleted.  There was nothing offensive about my question, hospital policies are constantly changing and improving over the years partly due to furor over improper storage and contamination.  I was simply interested in finding out the particular's about the Virginia Hospital considering how much of the DNA question relies on them.  
Hindsight is 20/20.  When the myopic haze of of the present is lifted by the march of time we see it clearly as the past.  Sociology, psychology, anthropology.  They are all means of understanding that which came before.  History cannot stand alone.

Offline Annie

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Re: Since she wasn't Anastasia.....
« Reply #124 on: March 19, 2006, 01:07:26 PM »
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On this site, I have never seen anything discussing the hospital's policies and of course there is a chance the threads have been deleted.  There was nothing offensive about my question, hospital policies are constantly changing and improving over the years partly due to furor over improper storage and contamination.  I was simply interested in finding out the particular's about the Virginia Hospital considering how much of the DNA question relies on them.  


I know, but I have been through this SO MANY times. I'm sure many of these hospital discussions survive somewhere on here, but I don't know which threads. Bottom line is, there was NO possibility of a switch or tampering, end of story.

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Re: Since she wasn't Anastasia.....
« Reply #125 on: March 19, 2006, 01:50:01 PM »
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Yes, that's right, the first wife had no children. Maybe she died in childbirth, or sickness took her before she had a child. The five surviving Schanskowska children all have the same parents. There have been wild stories of the parentage, but none of them are true.


You know, Annie, this time you definitely have your facts right. Only two things bother me: Why was Franziska described by her niece Waltraut as "the cleverest of the FOUR children", and where is Gertrude's birth certificate.

Kind regards,
Chat Noir

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Re: Since she wasn't Anastasia.....
« Reply #126 on: March 19, 2006, 01:52:28 PM »
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I know, but I have been through this SO MANY times. I'm sure many of these hospital discussions survive somewhere on here, but I don't know which threads. Bottom line is, there was NO possibility of a switch or tampering, end of story.


If you read Massie's "The Romanovs", I think we can put this discussion to rest. A switch seems very, very unlikely. And remember, the hair samples tested later, arrived at the same result.

Kind regards,
Chat Noir

Offline Annie

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Re: Since she wasn't Anastasia.....
« Reply #127 on: March 19, 2006, 02:26:03 PM »
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You know, Annie, this time you definitely have your facts right. Only two things bother me: Why was Franziska described by her niece Waltraut as "the cleverest of the FOUR children", and where is Gertrude's birth certificate.

Kind regards,
Chat Noir


Maybe she meant the four siblings of her parent, not counting the one who was her parent?

Offline Tsarina_Liz

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Re: Since she wasn't Anastasia.....
« Reply #128 on: March 19, 2006, 04:59:40 PM »
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If you read Massie's "The Romanovs", I think we can put this discussion to rest. A switch seems very, very unlikely. And remember, the hair samples tested later, arrived at the same result.

Kind regards,
Chat Noir


I've read Massie over and over, so I am well aware of what he wrote about.  I do not think a switch happened, nor do I think the sample was contaminated (albeit I put less faith in the purity of the sample).  While a lot of the people clamoring about these issues are just making noise, some of them have genuine concerns and there may be reason behind their madness.  I am interested in knowing, for the year in which AA's intestine was removed, what the standard procedure was for handling the specimin.  Massie does not go into that detail.  

 
Hindsight is 20/20.  When the myopic haze of of the present is lifted by the march of time we see it clearly as the past.  Sociology, psychology, anthropology.  They are all means of understanding that which came before.  History cannot stand alone.

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Re: Since she wasn't Anastasia.....
« Reply #129 on: March 19, 2006, 06:40:46 PM »
Liz,
I suggest that you PM Louis Charles (Simon), he has relatives who worked AT Martha Jefferson Hospital during the years in question and asked them the same question you ask now. I'm sure he'd be delighted to fill you in detail.

jeremygaleaz

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Re: Since she wasn't Anastasia.....
« Reply #130 on: March 20, 2006, 02:53:53 AM »
Quote

You know, Annie, this time you definitely have your facts right. Only two things bother me: Why was Franziska described by her niece Waltraut as "the cleverest of the FOUR children", and where is Gertrude's birth certificate.

Kind regards,
Chat Noir


Only one thing bothers me: Why, at the Nazi sponsored confrontation, when Anna Anderson was asked how many siblings she had, did Valerian say "well, here we are FOUR!".

As for the birth certificate "issue", scientifically speaking, it does not matter. For if they weren't related it wouldn't have matched.

I guess it's back to the DNA
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by jeremygaleaz »

Offline Annie

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Re: Since she wasn't Anastasia.....
« Reply #131 on: March 20, 2006, 06:45:11 AM »
Sometimes in the old days in the country some births were just never recorded. My Aunt Mae, now 81, has no birth certificate and never did. She is the only one of my Dad's 12 siblings not to have one. She has managed to get by all her life just explaining it never existed. When she put in for Social Security she had to get an elderly aunt to swear she remembered her birth. But everybody in the family knows Mae is just as  much a sister as anyone else.

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Re: Since she wasn't Anastasia.....
« Reply #132 on: March 20, 2006, 10:01:24 AM »
My Grandmother was born in a small town in Poland just before the turn of the century (19th), no one had birth certificates in those days.  Usually the birth was recorded in a journal by the local authority, but, if the parents didn't go do it no one would chase them down for failing to do so. As was said, everyone knew who everyone else was.

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Since she wasn't Anastasia.....
« Reply #133 on: March 21, 2006, 05:58:10 PM »
Gertrude, as far as we know, was born in a small village in the area of  Posen [country/province/district] which was part of Prussia [Germany] at that time.  And it's true, Germans love records.  Although this  is true,  sometimes a new infant was not recorded, however, it's not that common in a German community.  And, if the family was religious, an infant was usually baptized within the first few days, usually no more than five, because it was believed [in this time period] that the soul of a child must be saved and it was the parents duty to make sure a child was baptised.  Infant deaths were high in those days and that is why baptisims were done so quickly by the local priest/minister.

Times before the 1914 in German communities adhered to strict rules.  Even though there were no "birth certificiates", the birth was noted in the local village book by the local official in charge of such records.

If one cannot find a birth listed in this village book, it can usually be found in the Parish church records.

All of FS siblings, accept, Gertrude, are listed in both, the village book and the Parish church records.

Why isn't Gertrude's?  We don't know.  We can speculate.

What do we know? FS's father's, Anton S.'s,  first wife died.  We know nothing about this marriage, only that no one has found any issue from this marriage.  This does not mean there were no children.  It just means,  if there were, no one knew where to look.

It has been suggested Gertrude was older than FS and a product of Anton's first marriage.   Gertrude, however, claimed she was younger than FS.

It was Anton's  second marriage which gave issue to  FS who's birth and baptisam is recorded as is all her siblings accept Gertrude's.

Anton S.'s  second marriage ended in divorse.   This is very very unusual for those times.  Something out of the ordinary would have needed to have occured for this to have been allowed.  I am not familiar with Posen's public rules of gaining a divorse.  

I am not sure if FS's family was Catholic or Protestant.  Divorse wasn't easily approved by any Catholic or Protestant church at that time.

It is thought that both parents of FS remarried.  

If Anton did remarry, I don't think there is a record.  

We do know FS's mother did remarry and  having two young ladies in the home was not something FS's mother thought was good for her new marriage, so,  from what I understand, this is why FS's mother  sent FS and Gertrude to Berlin just before WWI.

One can continue to assume that Gertrude was the daughter of Anton S..  Yes.  Just as one can assume that Anton S. second wife was the mother of Gertrude.

Since we don't have any DNA / mtDNA  from Anton's first wife or second wife we can not compare Gertrude's DNA/ mtDNA with either.

We do not have any DNA/ mtDNA from any other female of Gertrude's and FS's silbings or FS's mother or mother''s family's female line.

See other threads on DNA / mtDNA matching between Gertrude's daughter and grandson Karl with AA.

What else should we know?

Did Gertrude grow up in the FS family as if she was the sibling to FS, Felix and the other childen of Anton S.'s home with his second wife?  Yes,  it appears she did.

So, can we assume that since Gertrude was brought up in Anton's house as if she was his daughter that she was?  Sure.

After 30 some years in researching various families, have I come across where a child, who was  raised in a family,  who ended up not being  a child of the two people everyone in the family thought were this child's parents?  Yes.  

What is the percentage of this occuring in families for that time period and that area of Posen?  Difficult to say.  I do not know the history of Posen during the times Gertrude was born.  I do know that before the drug penicillian the death rate of  human beings was high.  It was not uncommon for a mother giving birth to suffer complications and become very ill and die.  Mothers and sometimes father died witin hours or days of each other  in epidemics due to small pox, cholera, typhus, measles ....etc. etc. etc.  

There were many reasons an infant and  children of all ages ended up in families of aunts, uncles, grandparents, cousins and strangers.

Was it common for a child to grow up and not know they were adopted?  Not as uncommon as you might think for those times. Escpecially if a child was older than the other children.  This information about partentage did not usual surface until later in life, perhaps when a father  died and there was money and/ or land invovled due to inheritance.  If there was no money or land  and very little inheritance, if any, usually the question of who were rightful heirs never came into questions.   Unless of course, a  geneaologist or someone interested in a story  pops into the picture and starts looking for documents....  Sometimes we find the aunt Gertrudes were't really aunts but  cousins or no real blood relations at all.


In this post, I am merely stressing the lack of birth and baptismal records for Gertrude.  The DNA questions and answers can be found on other threads.

Let me add, again,  I do not believe AA was GD Anastasia,  nor have I ever thought she was.   Why am I posting?  I like keeping the facts as honest as they can be.  The fact is:  we do not know at this time from any documents surrounding her birth, that Gertrude was the child of Anton S.'s  by his second wife.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
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